Why is it only women that are affected by trans rights?(69 Posts)
There are transmen, as in those who are self identifying as men but were born biologically female. Why aren’t they making as much fuss and trying to erode the rights of the gender class they want to belong to? Is it because being born female and socialised as female they don’t feel entitled in the way transwomen do?
The entire trans debate seems to be focussed on transwomen and their rights to be declared women. I just don’t see any kind of similar ‘war’ going on on the men’s side. What’s going on?
And I’m not trying to say in any way this is because biological men are more inclusive (hollow laugh). I believe it is because transwomen feel entitled in a way transmen do not.
My thoughts are that it's partly socialisation, as you suggest, and partly down to the power imbalance in the gender hierarchy. It always helps to remember that despite all the talk of gender binary, which implies a balance of power, that gender is a socially constructed hierarchy in which men are superior to women.
TIM's are in, and are used to, a position of power. Women's rights are recently won, and as we are seeing, are very precarious. Men's rights, on the other hand, are firmly established as men are the default human. TIFs are trying to move up the power hierarchy, from a position of less power. TIM's are using their power to force their way into spaces currently occupied by those who have less power.
Sorry, tired and not expressing this very well.
Men have more power - no matter how they id or self-define. Women have less.
Yes, I agree. I’m also tired but had a sudden bee in my womanly bonnet about this. Everywhere you look it’s the trans debate but it’s all about transwomen. Transmen are barely visible.
I also suspect that many of the most vocal and aggressive of the TIMs and the mostly male TRAs have some serious mental health issues - which are shown by their sense of extreme entitlement, lack of self-awareness and empathy, their narcissism and rage at not getting their own way. Abusive, controlling men.
Yes, it’s hugely about control. I have such fear about where this is all going.
I do wonder if a lot of women who become trans man do it because they feel they don’t fit into the world / role that has been created for women. That they feel that as a man they can have the interests they want without being questioned about it.
I believe in most cases if women felt more like they could be and do whatever they wanted they wouldn’t feel the need to transition.
Does that make sense?
Yes it makes sense, Leslieknope (great name; love her). That’s really interesting. That some women may want to transition to men because it might give them more power where before they’ve felt powerless.
And then you have the men who want to be women yet also want to not only retain their male entitlement but take over anything and all that women have/have striven for, too.
Trans identified females have this in common with all other females, I think.
“I arrange my behavior around the irrational rage and violence of men like I would prepare for a rainy forecast, being more careful around 50% of the population just as a matter of survival. It’s routine.”-leupagus
"Has anyone noticed that transwomen make the news for success in business, sport, the arts and politics, while transmen make the news for having babies?" anon
I used to lurk on an on-line group which had a lot of trans and non-binary, agender, demi-whatsit, etc people on it. As far as I could make out they were almost all women. Those who identified as male did so in the domestic sphere - within their own relationships and small friendship groups. They were not seeking to impose on others - apart from the pronoun stuff, which they were obsessed about.
There was one particular woman I remember - I felt very sorry for her. She identified as a gay man, and was in a relationship with an actual gay man. Despite believing herself to be a man, she was very clearly socialised into a very traditional feminine role - she fretted about buying gifts for family and friends, she carried the emotional burden of the relationship with her partner, she was the one who did all the household planning and cared for her partner who seemed to be pretty useless, tbh.
Over time she revealed that she had grown up in a very conservative Christian family where men and women, boys and girls, had very clear gender roles. She mentioned a history of sexual abuse and she had been raped more than once. It seemed to me that she was seeking to escape from all of that, and that she was probably in some kind of dissociative state from her female body. She had top surgery, but was unhappy about it.
It was so sad to read about her life.
I was banned from that forum for being transphobic because I said that a vagina could not be a "male vagina".
Is it because being born female and socialised as female they don’t feel entitled in the way transwomen do?
That’s what the research findings are indicating, yes.
I also think that gay men are more accepted then lesbians.
Certainly all the gay men I know tend to be very popular whilst I am not sure gay women have it as easy.
Butch women, can for a better word stick out and maybe they feel more comfortable saying they are a man rather than a woman who chooses to dress and look a certain way.
I also think there is a fad aspect to it. The reality is, especially as a teenager there must be an attraction to being trans especially if you feel like an outcast at school. You would find a lot of information on the internet, friends who seem to feel the same way etc.
I’m not comparing the 2 but the only example I can give is 10 years ago the outcasts at school tended to become emos and want to dress and act a certain way as it gave them an identity etc.
Oh and also I have no idea what puberty is like for men but it can be crap for women, dealing with boobs and periods and all that this comes with. I can see the attraction of not wanting that anymore!
I’m going to say it’s because the trans umbrella now has the AGPs under it, as TIMs, but there’s not really a matching fetish-y group of TIFs, and if there are some, female socialisation will tend to mean they’re less vocal.
And most men aren’t going to be afraid of TIFs, in the worst case scenarios, actually harming them.
I also think that gay men are more accepted then lesbians.
This. I’ve always thought this. Gay men are these exotic, fabulous, wonderful creatures, and their cause is always out there, apparent and strong, in films and in the media. Gay women are in comparison fat, ugly dykes. I can’t think of many instances of gay women being shown as glamorous or fabulous at all.
Not that anyone should have to be fabulous or glamorous of course. It’s just that gay men are depicted that way all the time.
Yes my nephew who came out at 18 is the most popular person I know. I’m happy for him as he’s an awesome person but I also think it’s because it’s cool to be his friend and also women feel safe around him. He lives with 4 girls and regularly sleeps in the same bed as them.
I had very short hair for a while and people would straight out ask me if I was gay. Whilst infact all my gay friends have long hair and are beautiful.
Are there many middle aged women suddenly deciding they are men trapped in a woman's body? You don't hear about them do you?
Let's face it - everyone knows transwomen are male and transmen are female. Why else are transmen barred from inheriting titles, mmm?
When it comes down to it, size matters.
DS1 is about as much shorter and weaker than me, as I am to DP.
So funnily enough, if I was in a changing room, and someone came in that was the same size as DP, I would feel threatened, and if someone came in the same size as DS1, I really wouldn't.
In the same way, DP wouldn't feel threatened by someone the same size as me coming into his changing room.
For some reason it's always forgotten that men are on average, significantly bigger than women, and bigger people are more able to do harm, so of course women are more intimidated by men than men are of women.
The best you can do is invoke the idea of a slightly drunken, gay, male rugby team - how even if they were just being playful, it would seem bloody scary even to an average sized bloke.
A high proportion of trans identified females are still young - mostly in their teens, it seems. I worry about what happens to them when they reach adulthood. It won't be the same set of problems - men won't want to exclude them from male spaces because they're frightened of them, but there's a very strong likelihood they will want to exclude them because they don't think of them as "real" men.
This article by a young woman ( and her mum )who changed her mind about transitioning gives a good account to some of the possible reasons for wanting to identify as a male.
It's getting really hard to find a namechange that isn't taken. Apologies for this one, but I needed to namechange because of the amount of detail.
My sister is a FtM trans. This is her preferred term for it. Her pronouns are masculine too though I can't subscribe to them because she is not a man. This is nothing to do with the trans debate. She is simply not a man.
She's nearly 30, comes from homophobic parents, and knew she was a lesbian at the age of 11. She told me excitedly about her first kiss, shared details of her girlfriends with me and never found men or their bodies attractive. She was also a sufferer of eating disorders, depression and anxiety, most of which came from our abusive father. She was also horrificly bullied for being a lesbian at school.
Somewhere in her teens she found online gaming and made a few friends online. This became the entire world she lived for. If she identified as anything at the age of 14, it was as a white mage.
She developed an obsession with anime and manga which led her to deviant art and tumblr.
In her late teens she began a heterosexual relationship to please our father, and endured it for years, inclusive of sex and living together. She maintained her online world during this time.
She left him after feeling she could no longer hide her attraction for women. (I am not short of sympathy for him in this, he was a lovely man).
She was convinced out of her sexuality in her mid 20s after being groomed by a pansexual transwoman, who was an "online girlfriend".
My little sister, who is not a man but an individual that needs actual counselling and therapy for her mental health issues and coming to terms with the abusive and homophobic family we come from, is living some sort of half life.
She has her GRC, injects with testosterone and presents as a straight man. She wears a binder that ill-fits her large breasts. She shaves her armpits, facial hair and leghair. She doesn't venture out in public because she no longer feels entitled to pee as a woman but doesn't feel safe in the men's toilets.
She would not sleep with a transwoman who retained his penis. For this she would be branded as transphobic and ostracized from the same community which so underhandedly fought to claim her as one of their own.
The internet and a need for acceptance have so much to answer for, and seeing this happen to a woman in her twenties, I fear very much for younger lesbian women.
And for those who think I am wrong to say that she was groomed, she was (and remains) of vulnerable mental health, and she was persuaded little by little over a period of time by someone that had befriended her with an ulterior motive.
Please stand by the lesbian community, and protect any young or vulnerable lesbians who may fall victim to this.
Transnamechange my heart goes out to your sister.
Join the discussion
Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.Register now
Already registered with Mumsnet? Log in to leave your comment or alternatively, sign in with Facebook or Google.
Please login first.