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Ulster rugby case

(145 Posts)

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QuentinSummers Tue 13-Feb-18 22:47:05

Firstly please can we not speculate about the guilt or not of the men involved. A thread got pulled last week because of speculation and it would be good to keep this one up.

I was horrified last week because the media reported that the victim "denied being attracted to celebrities". AS if being attracted to celebrities is a crime and as if being attracted to someone is carte blanche for them to rape you.

Tonight I read the victim has been on the stand for 8 days, 7 of them being cross examined by the defence. She spent 4 hours being questioned today.

She's not on trial here. I think this is absolutely disgusting treatment of a victim. I'm surprised the judge is allowing it.

thebewilderness Tue 13-Feb-18 22:59:50

I think we should speculate about the motives for the media to imply that it would be impossible to be raped by anyone in any group that a woman is attracted to. I suppose they know better than to blame her for her own rape by calling her a groupie the way they used to do.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 Tue 13-Feb-18 23:07:56

The way the media report these cases is disgusting

They are well aware of how their biased reporting affects victims and society

QuentinSummers Tue 13-Feb-18 23:11:32

That is pretty much the defence case bewilderness.
I'm so sick of it. Why would anyone report a rape if they knew they were going to get 8 days on the stand themselves? It's disgusting. There must be a fairer way to do this.

DonnyAndVladSittingInATree Tue 13-Feb-18 23:14:53

It’s infuriating and not least because you can see the whole “she didn’t go there for tiddlywinks” attitude repeating again and again in the comments sections under the news reports. I do wonder how confident those people would be to post if the reporting was a great deal more neutral. The reporting is validating these attitudes.

WindowsSmindows Tue 13-Feb-18 23:15:07

I am in awe of that women's strength and am disgusted at this trial and how's it's been recorded. All that cross examination her and not a peep from the men?

Twixes Tue 13-Feb-18 23:16:01

Agree completely.

It's horrible what they're doing to her and it says a lot about the character of these men if they're allowing their lawyers to take this approach.

While it's v difficult to tell from newspaper reports, she seems to be holding up well. I get the impression she's a very strong young woman for some reason.

CassandraCross Tue 13-Feb-18 23:18:20

I'm shocked to read that the victim has been on the stand for 8 days and has been cross examined by the defence for 7 of them, there has to be a better way than this. The victims in the Rotherham trials had to be cross examined by each defendant's barrister and that went on for days, it really is putting the victim(s) on trial rather than the defendants, I don't know what the answer is but this is not going to go anyway towards increasing the number of rapes reported let alone convicted.

I hope the Prosecution get the chance to give the defendants an equally tough grilling.

DonnyAndVladSittingInATree Tue 13-Feb-18 23:19:00

Same twixes. I hope she has good family and friends around her. I know my own mother well enough to know I would get little suport in the same circumstances.

UpstartCrow Tue 13-Feb-18 23:21:19

How can that possibly be justified.

Badgerthebodger Tue 13-Feb-18 23:23:18

I agree that it’s completely disgusting that she is being so extensively cross examined. The defence are plainly hoping to trip her up with something - I’m sure I couldn’t stand up consistently over a whole week’s worth of picking and questioning and implications. She is very very strong and showing amazing courage.

thebellsofsainthelens Tue 13-Feb-18 23:23:19

Oh god.

I've got a rape case in the CJS at the moment and reading that transcript has made me horrified and angry in equal measure.

YES we shut down when this happens to us. YES traumatic memory is by it's nature fragmented.

NONE of that makes men not guilty of rape.

Our justice system is so, so far behind in it's recognition of how trauma affects the person.

Do they think rape victims just jump up and deal with it all in a logical way?


CassandraCross Tue 13-Feb-18 23:23:52

That newspaper report is chilling, I'm amazed the victim has managed to retain her composure and I'm disappointed that the Judge is allowing this level of attack from the Defence.

thebewilderness Tue 13-Feb-18 23:24:20

The judge is being incredibly irresponsible to allow this badgering of a crime victim to go on day after day.

Littlelambpeep Tue 13-Feb-18 23:24:21

I have followed this closely and so many views of people discussing this shock me. I totally feel for her

TieGrr Tue 13-Feb-18 23:24:54

She seems like a remarkable young woman who's dealt extremely well with the questioning so far.

I'm sick of the 'but why didn't you call for help?' attitude from the defence attorneys. As if there's only one way to act when you're raped and acting any other way is immediately worthy of suspicion.

DonnyAndVladSittingInATree Tue 13-Feb-18 23:28:14

I only hope that she was well prepared and had an idea of how gruesome this trial would be. I’m also hoping all this cross examining is being allowed so the defence can’t claim they didn’t get a chance to do it properly.

CassandraCross Tue 13-Feb-18 23:37:29

TieGrr agree, it has been proven over countless years that there is no consistent or 'right' way that humans behave in identical traumatic situations and I would question the intelligence of the Defence Barristers who would infer otherwise.

Cel982 Tue 13-Feb-18 23:38:52

I agree it’s horrendous. She sounds incredibly strong and dignified in the news reports; I notice she keeps using the barristers’ names in her answers, which somehow makes her sound really confident. But it must be an absolute nightmare to have your privacy invaded so thoroughly and publicly. I really hope this ordeal is over soon.

BrandNewHouse Wed 14-Feb-18 00:37:57

I think she has been amazing in her responses. In the newspaper reports she comes across as very compelling for me.

WipsGlitter Fri 16-Feb-18 19:22:28

The treatment of her has been terrible. No one in Northern Ireland will ever report a rape again.

The men may chose not to take the stand. I suspect they will get off.

BrandNewHouse Fri 16-Feb-18 19:43:32

Really? I haven’t read anything that would make me minded to acquit them.

PhelanThePain Fri 16-Feb-18 19:57:56

I don’t think I’m allowed to say what I think will happen or why as it would be speculation but I’m not hopeful for justice to happen.

dubmumof2 Fri 16-Feb-18 19:58:55

Yes, she sounds like one very strong woman. She was only 19 when the alleged rape took place, I understand.

BrandNewHouse, I agree I've heard nothing that would make me minded to acquit them so far but I have been really stunned when discussing this with others, including women, who have thought that some of the evidence has been really damning of her sad I get so disillusioned about people's lack of understanding, being drawn into stereotypes and feel that in this society it is impossible to have a fair rape trial, never mind secure a conviction. Consent as a concept is so completely skewed in people's perceptions....

Another aspect of this trial that is very disturbing in my view is the way in which the victim's anonymity is being deliberately undermined. My OH was travelling last week for work and met someone who used to be involved in rugby in Ireland (not even Ulster)who was peddling "the other side of the story" together with a photograph and name of the victim that he was very willing to show.....As I said to OH, imagine that was our DD whose photo was being bandied about in that way....

PhelanThePain Fri 16-Feb-18 20:01:56

I have been really stunned when discussing this with others, including women, who have thought that some of the evidence has been really damning of her

Same. I’ve been really shocked by the general discussion of this case outside of MN.

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