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Does anyone miss honest good old fashioned drag and trannies

(36 Posts)
RainyDaysNorth Tue 13-Feb-18 10:38:27

This may seem light hearted but I've been thinking about this. In all the self id self aggrandisement of men dressing as women are actually earnest women....what we've lost is the much more honest cultural phenomenon of men getting a kick out of dressing not as a woman but as a generally acknowledged fantasy cliche of sissy femininity

Trannies would dress in dowdy clothes - wool skirt, pearls, ten tights, flats. Drag queens would do the frills and bouffants.

Yes it was cliched but you could subvert by being a woman and also dressing in drag not just as a man but as a woman dressing as a cliched drag woman

No drag artists or transvestite movement tried to claim women's spaces or erode our lexicon. They would have been horrified (generalising)

They were typically innocent or intelligent men who understood that they were playing a fantasy cultural (or sometimes sexual) game

Yes they would share our loos but only in nightclubs and then acknowledging that this was all part of their act and it was our space

Now we have misogynistic, culturally inept men wanting to claim our space and erode our sex.

I wonder what has happened to the people who would have been drag artists and transvestites in the 90s and noughties. Have they been sucked in? If not then why are they not a voice and slapping the hands of the misogynistic self-id-ers and calling them out for being embarrassing fools?

Anyone else understand what I mean?

GuardianLions Tue 13-Feb-18 11:00:13

I think the burlesque scene harmed it too.

ThinkHardAndGrowANameChange Tue 13-Feb-18 11:13:33

Interesting on burlesque - how so?

TerfsUp Tue 13-Feb-18 11:15:34

No.

SomeRandomBird Tue 13-Feb-18 11:31:03

Transvestites are all still there, doing their gay pantomimes and such. It's all ticking along nicely outside the weird, paranoid world of Mumsnet where anyone confused about their gender is a baddie.

KatVonSweet Tue 13-Feb-18 11:44:46

You can be a heterosexual transvestite too.

But I have seen people attack people like Greyson Perry for somehow being anti trans. In fact one of his programmes for channel 4 is no longer available in the UK (but weirdly is on the Continent).

Long live the Dame I say

RealityHasALiberalBias Tue 13-Feb-18 11:54:49

My view on drag is that it is inherently gender critical, because the whole act is dependent upon the knowledge that it's really a man. He can wear lipstick, heels, all the flounces and feathers, be "fishy" enough to pass, and he's still a man.

Therefore, lipstick, heels, dresses etc are NOT what makes a woman. Drag satirises gender stereotypes and taunts the male gaze.

Terfragette Tue 13-Feb-18 11:58:09

Trannies are keeping their heads down because they are horrified at seeing what TRAs are screeching and demanding in their names.

Proper transsexuals like women and want to be women, to pass as one and to be accepted into the sisterhood of women.

TRAs hate women and want to show them who's boss, label them as "cis scum" and appropriate their womanhood.

PhilODox Tue 13-Feb-18 12:02:46

I don't think transvestitism is anything to do with trans-people tbh.

GuardianLions Tue 13-Feb-18 12:30:43

My disjointed thoughts. IME - my recollections may not be representative and I am sorry I am not going to be able to put the time and effort into writing this that the matter deserves.

Trannies and drag can be about gender-bending fun - irony, sending people up, being glamorous, ridiculous, artificial but creative and witty.

But the 1990s was the decade of retrosexism (& retroracism, etc) all terribly arch and ironic - a bit of arty haw haw haw over having 1970s porn mag pictures printed on lampshades and so on.

It was quite confusing really - and difficult to navigate feelings. Should I be laughing along, since everyone else (trendy, arty, gender-bending types) seems to be laughing, or is it okay to say that it makes me feel uncomfortable and demeaned as a woman? Am I not getting the joke?

Going to gay bars and having young gorgeous boys (that seemed to be what they were going for) bare-chested and dancing on bars to add a bit of glamour made me feel pretty uncomfortable. Again, a bit of a gooseberry, not wanting to see young people served up as 'eye meat' rather than just eye candy because of the historic treatment of women by men in the sex industries. I've always had a thing I don't like about male sexuality and gay, bi and straight men exhibit it - the leery shallow perv... <<shudder>>

The rise of burlesque happened as part of this ironic camp retrosexism movement of the 1990s, but was really boosted by the unsurprising latching on of mainstream interests to it.
I remember Marilyn Manson (who I think was the first celeb I recall taking female hormones for shits and giggles) stepping out with his girlfriend Dita Von Teese and the tabloids being all over something pretty niche.

Niche camp entertainment broadened out to hetero, mainstream audiences.
But on the ground, burlesque was all about women in a body-fascist world 'ironically' flirting with the sex industry by jiggling her cellulite as well as her tits to feel better about herself, while men congratulated themselves on their sophisticated palate for liking their jiggled woman-meat 'pleasantly flawed' and arsing around with feathers or something. Which made me again, feel really fucking uncomfortable.

The two scenes started to blend really - the camp, gender-bending arty scene, with the exploitative sex-industry, people started to call themselves 'queers', 'sex-positive' and all that.

I am sorry I can't be less vague right now.

AngryAttackKittens Tue 13-Feb-18 12:36:14

I see where you're going, GuardianLions. I remember casting a the jaundiced eye of suspicion on the whole thing back in the day and people trying desperately to persuade me that it was all terribly subversive really.

They were wrong. We (collective we, not me, I was already braiding my garlic necklace) invited a vampire into our house and now it won't fucking leave.

Destinysdaughter Tue 13-Feb-18 12:48:02

I get what you're saying OP, it never used to be a problem and I genuinely don't understand how it's got so hardcore and where this TRA movement has come from. Wanting to claim womanhood for themselves but at the same time seemingly hating us?

SomeRandomBird Tue 13-Feb-18 14:36:11

Destinysdaughter how were you feel if you were trans and read the content of these boards? The hatred isn't towards women, it's towards the TERFs who are spreading fear and hate about the trans community.

KatVonSweet Tue 13-Feb-18 14:41:24

Some Random Bird I disagree. TERF just means someone who disagrees in anyway with the Trans Activists. There's no debate.
"If you don't like it you can suck my lady d*ck" etc.

GuardianLions Tue 13-Feb-18 15:26:24

My view on drag is that it is inherently gender critical

None the less, it can be pretty misogynistic too.
Hence it seeming fitting to use the woman-hating gay man's term "fishy" - in a feminist forum shock

glenthebattleostrich Tue 13-Feb-18 15:38:19

Funnily enough somerandombird, it's never been a so called TERF who has said that my daughter should be raped because her mother is gender critical. That would be TRAs.

TheXXFactor Tue 13-Feb-18 15:42:35

Transvestites are all still there, doing their gay pantomimes and such. It's all ticking along nicely outside the weird, paranoid world of Mumsnet where anyone confused about their gender is a baddie.

LOL. Try talking about transvestism on Twitter or Tumblr and see how that goes for you.

Elendon Tue 13-Feb-18 15:57:12

Drag takes the ageing of women to a different level though. It's about the demise of women as sexual beings and therefore no longer available to men. Men despise women getting older.

Hence why my misogynistic father loved Les Dawson and his MiL jokes and why there are so many MiL threads on mumsnet.

Elendon Tue 13-Feb-18 15:58:36

Oh and just in case posters come on to inform me that gay men do drag too, it is well known that a lot of gay men are misogynistic as well.

LangCleg Tue 13-Feb-18 15:59:50

where anyone confused about their gender is a baddie

No, where males violating women's boundaries and ignoring consent are named for exactly what they are. Risk.

DodoPatrol Tue 13-Feb-18 15:59:59

I didn't start to worry about transgender trends because of Mumsnet. It's not some niche Internet interest.

I started to worry because of the sudden upturn in the number of friends' children declaring themselves transgender and heading off on a path to sterilization, cheered on by their schools, with in at last one case a set of parents finding it very hard to put the brakes on; and because of the father-of-two we know who has broken up his family apparently without a backward glance but wanted to talk endlessly about now 'mothering' them instead.

Of the girls (transboys, if they persist), two are lesbians; one is a classically nerdy engineer who is almost certainly autistic; one younger girl has had a succession of stepfather figures through a difficult childhood.

What I have seen on these boards has increased my sympathy and exasperation in about equal measure, but it hasn't at all convinced me that we should prioritize 'gender' over actual sex.

DodoPatrol Tue 13-Feb-18 16:00:37

*at least, not at last

Babycham1979 Tue 13-Feb-18 16:08:40

GuardianLions, interesting that you say,

Again, a bit of a gooseberry, not wanting to see young people served up as 'eye meat' rather than just eye candy because of the historic treatment of women by men in the sex industries. I've always had a thing I don't like about male sexuality and gay, bi and straight men exhibit it - the leery shallow perv... <<shudder>>

So it's actually male sexuality and the male sex-drive that you dislike, rather than male attitudes to women? Nothing to do with misogyny, rather a fundamental function of male sexual desire (whoever the subject)?

Destinysdaughter Tue 13-Feb-18 16:08:50

SomeRandomBird ( shit username btw)

TERF is a pretty meaningless term used against women to shut us up when we refuse to let our hard won rights be trampled on and taken away from us.

Well, there's a lot of us that aren't going to let that happen and I think we should reclaim 'TERF' and call ourselves Terfragettes!

GuardianLions Tue 13-Feb-18 16:22:41

it's actually male sexuality and the male sex-drive that you dislike,

No it is male sexual entitlement that I dislike.

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