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Should the T be in LGBT?

(106 Posts)
PikesPeaked Tue 13-Feb-18 09:39:31

Not sure where I should post this, but Feminist Chat seems to be the main area where trans issues are discussed, and where there are L and T posters contributing.

Should T be included in LGB, given that T tries to erase L and G?

Should T be included in LGB, given that L, G and B (and all the other sexualities) are about how people relate to other people, whereas T is about how people relate to themselves?

Backenette Tue 13-Feb-18 09:43:43

No it shouldn’t.

The movement attaches itself to gay rights because most people think that gay rights are something worth fighting for. Gay rights do not impinge on the rest of society. Same arc marriage for example doesn’t harm opposite sex marriage in any way. It’s just levelling the playing field.

But what TRAs want is actively damaging to gay people, especially lesbians.

TerfyMcTerface Tue 13-Feb-18 09:43:51

No it absolutely should not. It's the cuckoo in the nest. It's colonised the LGB community in the same way as transactivists are colonising womanhood.

ThePinkPanter Tue 13-Feb-18 09:48:37

Absolutely not. Having the two so closely affiliated is damaging as it perpetuates the stereotype that lesbians are somehow less womanly.

AgentProvocateur Tue 13-Feb-18 09:50:55

Absolutely not. As my old maths teacher would say, “It’s like comparing apples and oranges”.

As an aside, because of T, Gay Pride is now know as Pride. A lot of the gay community feel like it’s becoming less and less relate to to them, which is sad.

LangCleg Tue 13-Feb-18 09:53:07

No. It should not.

Transgenderism is a homophobic ideology that delegitimises sexual orientation.

It's homosexual not homogenderal.

You can see this by the hostility towards lesbians evidence by cotton ceiling rhetoric.

The eventual backlash against T will also fall out all over the LGB.

gussyfinknottle Tue 13-Feb-18 10:02:55

Trans issues seem like different issues to LGB issues other than the general- " it's nice to be respectful of people". Which you can apply to most campaigning.
In the same way as Trans issues don't really reflect women's concerns.
Gender Dysphoria is very very rare. Feeling that you don't quite fit other people's expectations of your gender is less rare but it is not the same thing.
It worries me that there is a tendency to make it the same thing and to trample over others while you do it.

StillTryingHard Tue 13-Feb-18 10:10:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheNoseyProject Tue 13-Feb-18 10:16:26

I thought that years ago too. The T isn’t sexuality related. But it’s LGBTQIA+ now and I see at least LGBT+ on most things.

PikesPeaked Tue 13-Feb-18 10:35:14

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

PikesPeaked Tue 13-Feb-18 10:37:25

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

thedancingbear Tue 13-Feb-18 10:37:42

Yes it should be there to recognise that this is a sexual issue. it's not about being a woman or man - it is a sexual stance

This is transphobic.

Transgenderism is a homophobic ideology that delegitimises sexual orientation.

So is this.

This is hate speech, you know.

StillTryingHard Tue 13-Feb-18 10:43:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

thedancingbear Tue 13-Feb-18 10:43:20

Paedophilia is a sexual stance, too. Should it therefore be LGBTP?

Comparing transgender people to paedophiles isn't particularly cool either.

MaisyPops Tue 13-Feb-18 10:43:59

Shouldn't be there in my opinion.
I used to think it should but after peak trans i'm not convinced.

I have every support for people who wish to transition and are normal folk. One of my friends has started transitioning to being a transwoman. She is bloody mortified at the way these transtrenders treat women and thinks transactivism is misogynistic and the rhetoric is damaging to lesbians. Like my friend, I'll support adults wish to transition but won't accept any crap about transwomen and women being thr same and women being silenced

LGBA - sexuality
TQ - gender stance
They are not comparable.

Rainatnight Tue 13-Feb-18 10:47:10

No. No. No. And no.

I am L. (Well, formerly B and now L grin). I would never in a zillion years say it to any of my younger LGBTQQ++++XYZLMNOP friends, but the inclusion of T has never say comfortably with me.

Gay people fought for years and years to make the point that there is nothing wrong with us. That is profoundly different from people who think that things are so wrong, they are literally trapped in the wrong body.

But I can't say that.

YassQueen Tue 13-Feb-18 10:47:38

No. I don't think lesbians should be forced to share their spaces and their movement with a group of people whose ideology references the cotton ceiling and the belief that if lesbians don't want to be labelled transphobic, they must accept penis.

I also don't want to be told that I'm transphobic for being bisexual rather than pansexual. Bi erasure is bad enough without transactivists trying to tell us that our sexuality is wrong.

StillTryingHard Tue 13-Feb-18 10:47:52

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SomeDyke Tue 13-Feb-18 10:49:27

No, should be just LGB.........

The gay community fell for it once they adopted, rather than the more radical 'gay liberation' line, the 'I was born this way (and can't help it)' line. Assuaged fears as to us converting straight folks, and opened the way for TRAs to step in with the 'I was born with a ladybrain, I can't help it!' line.

Whereas a braver statement would have been -- whether I was born like this or not, what's wrong with being gay or lesbian? If it were a choice, I would choose the same again! Now saying gays possibly weren't born like this is seen as homophobic. As regards non-dysphoric trans, a braver statement (and the sort of thing that Izzard used to say) would be no, I'm not a woman, I don't have a ladybrain, I'm just a man who likes wearing/doing this stuff, and what's wrong with that?

Gay biological essentialism doesn't really harm that many people, whereas the biological essentialism that TRAs advocate does, being sexist and homophobic at the same time.

TheXXFactor Tue 13-Feb-18 10:54:53

This is hate speech, you know.

No it isn't. Hate crimes are crimes that are aggravated by mistreatment of a protected group - e.g. a mugging when the victim is chosen because of race. There is still a strong presumption in favour of free speech in this country and people are free to express views that others consider sexist/racist/transphobic, as long as it is not with the intention of inciting a crime.

We need a debate, not to shut down other people if we disagree with them.

OvaHere Tue 13-Feb-18 10:55:56

No it shouldn't but it's also become apparent within this debate (and I'm sure lesbians have known this for ever) that most of the G are not willing to see the damage being done to the L or just don't care.

It might be more productive for the L to liberate itself into a separatist movement from the rest of the alphabet.

Easier said than done I realise!

BlackBetha Tue 13-Feb-18 10:59:55

No it shouldn't, and neither should the Q=queer in my opinion, especially as it seems 'trans' and 'queer' can mean whatever the person using them wants them to (and often both seem to mean straight males wanting to be special and/or intrude into female/lesbian spaces).

thedancingbear Tue 13-Feb-18 11:27:15

No it isn't. Hate crimes are crimes that are aggravated by mistreatment of a protected group - e.g. a mugging when the victim is chosen because of race.

This is simply incorrect: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech#United_Kingdom

FFS. Of course debate the issue. Seeking to discredit the trans community by labelling them as perverts and (akin to) paedophiles is something entirely different.

TheXXFactor Tue 13-Feb-18 11:32:45

Read your own link dancingbear. There is only an offence if there is intent to cause distress and specific guarantees of freedom of expression.

TerfsUp Tue 13-Feb-18 15:22:42

No.

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