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why do men keep telling me no man will pretend to be a woman to access female spaces when they already do?

(44 Posts)
Sarahjconnor Sun 11-Feb-18 16:12:36

I don't understand why gender critical, sensible, feminist principled men keep telling me categorically that men will not pretend to be women to access female only spaces. Over the years I have read about hundreds of men dressing as women, setting up close circuit videos etc etc to spy on women and children. Why don't men believe this even when they know it has happened?

Even DH said it and we had a landlord set up a hidden video in our room when we were students and DH was there when the Police visited and told us they see this happen ALL THE TIME.

Sorry, I know I am ranting, I am just so frustrated with calmly pointing out my views and then being told, with a patronising smile "Yeah, but its not like men will really do that". When I forcefully point our they will - usually including my story - told multiple times on MN - that the first time I saw an erect penis was a transvestite masturbating in the women's toilet in the park when I was 11, - they say - well some women might do that too. So I say yes, but historically they haven't and anyway transmen aren't trying to access mens spaces, they just refuse to discuss it any more and accuse me of being sexist. I am getting really frustrated.

Can anyone offer a calm and reasonable reply to 'men won't do this' and if you have press stories I can have them readily available. Grrrr angry

Very sorry for the rant, I am not getting much sleep at the moment due to caring responsibilities and have too much time doing very mind numbing repetitive tasks to mull all this over .....

Sarahjconnor Sun 11-Feb-18 16:16:23

sorry that really does read like a pointless rant.

OvaHere Sun 11-Feb-18 16:22:57

It's probably a number of things.

They probably can't imagine that a non TI man would risk ridicule and abuse for cross dressing in a public place. Which maybe is a lack of imagination because they can't imagine themselves ever doing it.

Could also just be dismissal of women as 'hysterical' and wanting to play down the fact men do some outrageous shit in the name of getting their rocks off.

Or could be the usual lefty dude wanting to champion every underdog (except women).

LangCleg Sun 11-Feb-18 16:24:33

It's not a rant.

It does happen.

It is commonplace.

It is male pattern offending.

Men are sexist so they pretend it isn't.

Xenophile Sun 11-Feb-18 16:24:42

They do it because they're gaslighting themselves and everyone else. Because women are socialised to believe the best in people and because we're constantly told that our spidey senses are way off.

Hope you manage to get some rest soon, this whole thing can play havoc with your mind, take care of yourself as well. flowers

OvaHere Sun 11-Feb-18 16:25:51

Or it could even just be that they have spent a lifetime unhindered and oblivious to sexual harassment that they just don't notice what goes on. (assuming they are decent men in themselves who wouldn't dream of being a perve)

Popchyk Sun 11-Feb-18 16:31:11

You could ask him what the 53,000 registered sex offenders in England and Wales intend to do with self-identification.

Does he think that they will be too 'honourable' to self-identify into women's places?

And if he says yes, then tell him about the male rapists in women's prisons. Already.

The number of transsexual people is small (and self-ID does not benefit them at all). The number of registered sex offenders is not. And unfortunately the number of predatory men is even higher.

UpstartCrow Sun 11-Feb-18 16:35:27

I think some of them are still confused about what they are supporting, and think trans = transsexual.

And many others are just male chauvinists. You know the sort, they claim 'gender apartheid' is a thing but sneer that 'the patriarchy' does not exist.

Boulshired Sun 11-Feb-18 16:40:36

It’s the belief that men have to do something, self ID means men have to do nothing and would be hateful to even query. I do not think that has sunk in for many not just men. They do not need to pretend.

FloraFox Sun 11-Feb-18 16:48:04

I think it stems from deep rooted misogyny. The men who say this think it would be appalling to be considered a woman or a man who wants to be a woman and they think other men believe the same way. Only a man who actually is a woman (i.e. a trans identified male) would claim to be a woman because... the horror.

AskBasil Sun 11-Feb-18 16:49:50

It's because they are socialised to believe that they know better than you even about something you know more about and they don't realise they're socialised that way.

So they just can't help mansplaining you why you're wrong.

Bless them.

Capelin Sun 11-Feb-18 16:53:03

Because they are deluded.

Onlynever Sun 11-Feb-18 16:57:11

How about asking them how far they think a paedophile will go to access children?

Sarahjconnor Sun 11-Feb-18 17:04:15

Thanks for all your replies. I think perhaps most men, who are not abusive, think that abuse happens spontaneously as a result of opportunity rather than being a planned attack. Does that sound right?

UpstartCrow Sun 11-Feb-18 17:07:20

I think most men think it is a certain type of man who is abusive, rather than it being possible for any man to take advantage of an opportunity,

Ohforfoxsakereturns Sun 11-Feb-18 17:08:30

Because men aren’t being asked to account for their sex. Women are.

Trans activists are horrified that women don’t want penises in their space and take it personally. There is no empathy, no understanding being shown for why we have these spaces in the first place.

Mind you, if a bloke is happy to wank at a bus stop early evening, we don’t need safe spaces do we? We should just not go out.

DearSergio Sun 11-Feb-18 17:10:12

Read a news article about a man hiding in a septic tank to watch women and girls in a public toilet. I've seen the inside of a septic tank envy - not envy. Tell any disbelieving men to google this case. Men will do anything to exploit women

CertainHalfDesertedStreets Sun 11-Feb-18 17:17:32

I have said it before here but the weirdest place I have ever been flashed was Yad Vashem - the Holocaust museum in Jerusalem. Proper 'having a massive wank' flashed too.

Sex offenders are animals. They will do anything, anywhere to harass and intimidate women. Anywhere. The changing rooms at Top Shop, the Avenue of the Righteous Among the Nations, anywhere.

DailyWTFMoments Sun 11-Feb-18 17:36:50

Or it could even just be that they have spent a lifetime unhindered and oblivious to sexual harassment that they just don't notice what goes on. (assuming they are decent men in themselves who wouldn't dream of being a perve)

In my experience, it is this.

On the back of the Weinstein and Westminster sleaze scandals, I have had the opportunity to give presentations to groups of men in positions of authority - men who know me, who I have had professional relationship with over some years.

I have explained to them, in graphic detail, the assaults and harassment I have been subject to over 30 years (since I was a young teen).

They have been horrified. You can hear a pin drop when I've finished. The men present to fall into one of two broad categories.

The predators - those few who actively engage in the type of behaviour I have described. They either get defensive, or refuse to have anything more to do with me. Their loss.

The rest can be described as those who "had no idea" what women have to put up with, and get quite apologetic and embarrassed that 'men' do those things to women.

The latter group are the ones I go on to encourage to challenge the behaviour when they see it. Suggest to them that men need to "self police" this behaviour and it shouldn't be up to women to do that. Explain that to help women, they can call out locker room banter, watch what happens when a woman gets on a train and challenge what they see, look at where their colleague's hand is placed when he's talking to a female client.

For some of the men I've spoken to, it's had a significant effect. The filter has been removed from their eyes, and they tell me that now they know what women are subject to, they see it everywhere.

rememberthetime Sun 11-Feb-18 18:03:54

I think there's even more to it and it is something some women seem to struggle with too.

its a kind of cognitive dissonance. Men (and women too) know, understand and sympathise with sexism and male abuse on women. They don't agree with it and they get just as angry about it as we do.

But then Because they are this type of man (the ones who are happy to describe themselves as feminists) they are also in support of all marginalised groups. Therefore they support the trans community too.

So where can they go - how do they square their acceptance that men do crap things to women with their needs to believe that trans women deserve the rights to express themselves anyway they wish?

They fall back on the usual argument "not all men". They can't get their head around believing both things simultaneously, so they figure that men wanting access to women's spaces for the wrong reasons is so unlikely they don't have to think about it. Its easier to pretend it won't happen.

They know men are abusers and want to set themselves apart from that, but they also believe that trans women are deserving of their "rights". How do they get to be new age men if they don't believe both of these things?

Winefred Sun 11-Feb-18 18:09:00

I used to work with a man who denied that child sexual abuse existed. Because no one would do that. So people who said these things were liars.

DailyWTFMoments Sun 11-Feb-18 18:13:13

I used to work with a man who denied that child sexual abuse existed. Because no one would do that. So people who said these things were liars.

Oh, there are definitely some ostriches when it comes to sexual harassment/abuse/assault of women. Head in sand, I can't hear you, lalala, fingers in the ears, I don't want to think about it.

I've also had discussions with women who believe that it's exaggerated as it's never happened to them, so it can't be as common as other women make out, and with men who think that sexual and domestic violence equally affects men as victims as well as women.

AnyFucker Sun 11-Feb-18 18:13:58

It's just ignorance and stupidity. Nothing more, nothing less.

Childrenofthestones Sun 11-Feb-18 18:15:05

When we got a new local swimming pool with a unisex global changing room and Mrs stones said it would only encourage perverts, I told her she was being paranoid.
Less than two weeks after it opened a man was caught trying to take pictures under divide between the cubicles.

Materialist Sun 11-Feb-18 18:20:49

I think men in general are very ignorant about women’s lives, in a way that women aren’t ignorant of theirs. Women read novels and see films that feature all sorts of male internal and external experience. We know a lot about what it’s like, day to day, from birth to death, from rags to riches or back again, to be a man. But there are a lot of statistics to show that men don’t and won’t read novels written by women, and if those women-penned novels center female protagonists, forget it. It’s no coincidence that most award-winning female writers write about men. And men on their own don’t go to movies featuring women’s lives either.

So the “good men”who are abashed at having no idea truly are abashed and upset about what they’re now learning. The thing is, they could have known all along. It’s not like women haven’t been writing about this for 50+ years.

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