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Quick query about gender dysphoria

(61 Posts)
LostSight Fri 09-Feb-18 15:00:40

Does anyone have a link to some evidence that some trans people are claiming that those who are trans do not necessarily suffer from gender dysphoria please? Currently having a discussion on twitter and the trans campaigner in question has just stated that trans people have it and therefore it is a medical condition.

No worries if nobody does. I’ve just seen it mentioned before and tried to search for evidence, but couldn’t come up with anything.

Datun Fri 09-Feb-18 15:09:45

There are certainly many transactions to claim you don't have to have it.

I'm not sure what the numbers after that though. It's just anecdotal, at the moment.

However a cross dressing fetish is also considered the basis for transgenderism. Whether or not you call that gender dysphoria.

I'm not sure if it would help, or hinder your argument. Because you could, conceivably, call a fetish dysphoric?

It's whether or not someone genuinely thinks you can just switch genders with no basis. Whether gender dysphoria is the only real basis, whether both gender dysphoria and AGP are each a legitimate basis.

Everyonematters Fri 09-Feb-18 15:13:44

If all trans people have diagnosed gender dysphoria then why would we need Self ID?

The definition of trans being used to argue for self-id is huge. It would include me and I do not in any way see myself as trans.

Have a look at Stonewall's definition of trans.

Or the one used by swim England, which is basically the same.

Everyonematters Fri 09-Feb-18 15:19:44

The swim England guidelines say that a cross-dresser may consider themselves trans. They also say that trans people should use the changing areas THEY prefer. If women or girls don't like it they need educated. They also say that transphobia includes fear of someone trans.

Hey presto, it's transphobic for a teenage or younger girl to feel fear if a cross-dresser with a penis who calls themselves trans is in the women's changing rooms with them. They clearly need re educated.

LostSight Fri 09-Feb-18 15:26:54

Thanks very much.

SchrodingersFrilledLizard Fri 09-Feb-18 15:36:05

I wouldn't define it as a medical condition as much as a mental illness / psychological condition.

nauticant Fri 09-Feb-18 15:57:24

I share your frustration. Every time I've discussed this with people who have some knowledge but haven't thought this through properly, they say "but of course all transgender people have gender dysphoria!" They do not like to be told that this is not the case. In my experience, when I share evidence I either get denial, or a change of subject. And when there's a change of subject, soon enough they'll be back to arguing on the basis that all transgender people have gender dysphoria.

Here's what the bible of transgender says:

It is utter garbage but they are quite definite on this matter. Gender dysphoria isn't a requirement for someone to be transgender. Whether you can stomach giving them a click is another matter.

Personally, I think a transgender person without gender dysphoria is someone making a lifestyle choice.

TransHobbit Fri 09-Feb-18 17:26:51

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FusionChefGeoff Fri 09-Feb-18 17:36:45

I think that's an excellent point re penises but is this a fact that has evidence behind it? Otherwise they could simply say 'no they dont'

DropItLikeASquat Fri 09-Feb-18 17:41:14

I am wanting to be educated so please don't shoot me down but if a trans woman wants to keep his/her penis then how are they considered to be a woman if they still have the working parts of a man? surely thats a dysphoric to want to keep your penis if you believe yourself to be a woman.

Myunicornfliessideways Fri 09-Feb-18 17:41:16

Google 'truscum'.

CapnHaddock Fri 09-Feb-18 17:44:13

May 25, 2017 (LifeSiteNews) — The American Society of Plastic Surgeons released its first-ever report tracking national statistics on transgender surgery, increasingly referred to as “gender confirmation surgeries,” that showed close to a 20 percent increase in 2016 over the previous year.

The ASPS, which represents 94 percent of all U.S. board-certified plastic surgeons, revealed that members of the organization performed 3,256 “transmasculine” and “transfeminine” surgeries last year.

Contrary to public perception, the number of genital operations transforming the male genitalia and reconstructing it into that of a female, or transforming the female genitalia and reconstructing it into that of a male, is miniscule. NBC News reported that only 15 of the more than 3,200 procedures in 2016, or about 0.5 percent, were genital operations, all of which were performed on men seeking to transition. No genital operations were performed on women seeking to transition.

Among male-to-female patients, the vast majority of procedures (92 percent) were breast operations. Seven percent were facial.

So there you go. Most people, despite their terrible gender dysphoria, just want their faces and boobs to read man/woman.

CapnHaddock Fri 09-Feb-18 17:46:54

So that's 99.5% of trans people who had any kind of surgery at all who had no 'bottom' surgery. And that excludes those who don't have any surgery at all.

I suspect the 80% might be a bit on the low side

nauticant Fri 09-Feb-18 18:04:25

surely thats a dysphoric to want to keep your penis if you believe yourself to be a woman.

To be compassionate about this, there will be people with gender dysphoria who don't have the money to pay for the sex reassignment surgery (not everyone can count on free treatment) or are more afraid of going through with it than with living with gender dysphoria.

My problem is that I suspect that the vast majority of "transgender people who make up 1% of the population of the UK" won't have gender dysphoria.

Mumsnut Fri 09-Feb-18 18:14:30

I agree, Nauticant. I suspect also that there would be a higher take-up rate if the results were better.

CapnHaddock Fri 09-Feb-18 19:21:16

I wouldn't go through the surgery no matter how dysphoric I felt - it's shit and doesn't work. But it just underlines to me how much this is a mental health issue. No one is born in the wrong body.

Some people don't feel they fit gender stereotypes really strongly. Change the stereotypes, don't cut up your body

Stopmakingsense Fri 09-Feb-18 19:44:56

I think that there are a subset of gender dysphoric people for whom taking the hormones of the opposite sex relieves their dysphoria. In fact it is a sort of test - take the hormones,feel better = trans; take the hormones, don't feel better = not trans. Perhaps someone with direct experience might comment. This is perhaps the basis for defining transgenderism (transsexualism) as a somatic (biological) illness, that is properly treated with medication/ surgery.

I think that this subset is not the majority now. The majority have an identity difficulty, not gender dysphoria, which begs the question, what relevance are hormones and surgery?

Datun Fri 09-Feb-18 19:53:55

No genital operations were performed on women seeking to transition.

There was an eye-opening thread on here recently, about this very thing.

It's not possible to create anything resembling a working penis.

To get an erection, the penis has to be pumped up by means of a saline solution and squeezing the new testicles in order to do it.

If any woman has this, I would imagine her gender dysphoria is off the bloody wall.

You can get the male surgery on the NHS. So I don't understand about money being prohibitive.

I totally understand it being a severe solution.

But, nonetheless, I would imagine that gender dysphoria would require a severe solution.

Certainly from the transwomen who post on here.

In my opinion, it's far more likely that the bulk of transwomen are now made up of fetishists who thoroughly enjoy their penis.

thebewilderness Fri 09-Feb-18 19:59:57

If the trans identified males had not spent so much time bleating about being the most oppressed people on the planet it would look as though they are trying to create a new class at the top of the hierarchy for themselves to occupy, wouldn't it.

nauticant Fri 09-Feb-18 21:10:16

You can get the male surgery on the NHS. So I don't understand about money being prohibitive.

Not everyone has access to the NHS.

Everyonematters Fri 09-Feb-18 22:32:32

I think it's important to remember that there are genuine, decent people who are transwomen just trying to live their lives in difficult circumstances. And some of whom are as angry as us about some of the behaviour from and intentions of transactivists.

thebewilderness Fri 09-Feb-18 23:45:33

Why do you assume that women, men, and transpersons, who are in the midst of organizing to prevent more of women's rights being stripped from them need to be told NATALT? Everyonematters.

Everyonematters Fri 09-Feb-18 23:48:31

What is NATALT?

Juzza12 Fri 09-Feb-18 23:50:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Juzza12 Fri 09-Feb-18 23:52:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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