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Trans and disabled loos

(72 Posts)
TerfClub Tue 06-Feb-18 14:23:00

I saw a brief twitter exchange this morning (on an app and no idea how to link) saying that the third space for transwomen, instead of using women's toilets or creating a third space, that disabled toilets should be used as they are usually empty.
In rl I've heard similar suggestions.
I don't know how I feel about this.
On one hand, it might appear to be a suitable suggestion, but on the other, is that not taking away a facility designed and created for disabled people who cannot access toilets otherwise?

To me the ideal solution would be a further space, but in reality this isn't always a possibility, so should disabled toilets be re-designated to cater for those who find it uncomfortable to use mens or ladies toilets?

zzzzz Tue 06-Feb-18 14:28:02

No of course not.

MimpiDreams Tue 06-Feb-18 14:31:27

One could argue that a mental health problem, which is exacerbated by using the 'correct' toilet, is a disability. Would you object to an autistic person using one because they feel anxiety using the regular ones?

TerfClub Tue 06-Feb-18 14:36:00

Someone stated that gender dysphoria is a disability, which I didn't know.

My opinion is that disabled toilets are for disabled people, autism included.

Patodp Tue 06-Feb-18 14:36:32

No disabled loos are not a solution to transgender loos. How daft. It's bad enough most of them double up as baby change loos.

Patodp Tue 06-Feb-18 14:36:57

No gender dysphoria is not listed as a disability!

AssassinatedBeauty Tue 06-Feb-18 14:37:02

No, absolutely not. A disabled person needs to use the disabled toilet because they cannot use the standard facilities. Someone with gender identity issues can use the standard facilities but may not want to, or may feel uncomfortable doing so. I think an absolute need is more important than a want/feeling uncomfortable.

Perhaps some of the men's toilets could be sectioned off and repurposed as a third space? That would seem a reasonable solution in most cases I would have thought.

Patodp Tue 06-Feb-18 14:38:21

It's a "medical condition" in the sub-section mental health conditions.

Patodp Tue 06-Feb-18 14:39:22

I don't think even autistic people need to use the disabled loos. As they can use normal loos.

Patodp Tue 06-Feb-18 14:40:15

I agree an area in the male loos would be most suitable for trans seeing as the majority are TIMs.

SwanVests Tue 06-Feb-18 14:40:39

They can't if they’re terrified hand dryers pato.

Greensleeves Tue 06-Feb-18 14:42:56

Sometimes autistic people do need to use the disabled loos, if they need a carer to help them, or if they cannot be allowed too far out of sight of a carer so can't go upstairs/along corridors, or if they struggle with personal care and need more space. People with any disability are entitled to use disabled facilities. They're not just for wheelchair users.

TerfClub Tue 06-Feb-18 14:43:18

I think autism can be a reason to use disabled loos, as there can be issues with queues, hand driers and sharing a small space with others, some autistic people might not have a problem but others might.

It was DrRadFem who said that gender dysphoria was a disability.

MimpiDreams Tue 06-Feb-18 14:45:21

I don't think even autistic people need to use the disabled loos. As they can use normal loos.

Some can, some can't. The High Court recently ruled that not recognising the physical restrictions mental health can have is discriminatory and illegal.

NoqontroI Tue 06-Feb-18 14:47:26

It's pushing the problem on to people with disabilities though then isn't it. Really a portion of the men's should be sectioned off where possible in existing buildings, and in future, when planning for new or refurbished buildings, additional toilets should be put in place.

zzzzz Tue 06-Feb-18 14:48:04

I don't think even autistic people need to use the disabled loos. As they can use normal loos.

hmm you’re right of course what on Earth were we thinking?


NoqontroI Tue 06-Feb-18 14:49:12

I don't think even autistic people need to use the disabled loos. As they can use normal loos.

Some do need to. Some don't. Case by case basis.

Geronimoleapinglizards Tue 06-Feb-18 14:56:24

I can only speak for myself but as someone with a disability, if I couldn't use the loo when I needed to because there sas a teen in there with the most horrendous, crippling gender dysphoria and he/she experienced real distress at using a different one, I wouldn't mind.

If it was Andi Dier, Paris Lees or any other AGP man being a snowflake, insisting they couldn't use the male one, I'd think it completwly inappropriate. Why should I stand for longer waiting with my pain building up for someone's narcissism? Disabled people get enough of a raw deal accessing life. We shouldn't be shoved out the way yet again by entitled people who need to think about people who have needs other than themselves.

A proper third space which doesn't encroach on anyone else is the way forward.

NoHaudinMaWheest Tue 06-Feb-18 14:59:48

I can see why it is suggested that disabled loos are used as the transgender option and I know this is already happening in places. They are already unisex and the (often false) perception is that they are not used much.
However there are already so many problems with loos for disabled people that adding transgender issues into the mix, just makes for further difficulties
There are a number of disabilities which make it difficult or impossible to use standard loos but which don't require the additional space that wheelchair users need. Autism (depending on how it affects people) can be one of these but also stick/crutch users, people with stomas or bowel problems and in some cases people with mental health problems.
There are, I would imagine more of these people, than wheelchair users and this puts pressure on the small provision of disabled loos. They would be better served if there were more slightly larger loos with a washhand basin in them. Then the wheelchair accessible loos could be left for those who need the space and made larger so that it is actually possible to turn around in them and to lock the door behind you. It would hopefully mean that they are also large enough for the hoists and changing tables which the most severely disabled people need.
If trans people wish they could use the smaller disabled loos on the grounds that they have a mental health condition which is a disability.
It seems however that many trans people do not see themselves as having a mental health condition and therefore as not disabled and so not entitled to/ comfortable with using disabled loos.

Just relabelling disabled loos is no more solving the problem than relabelling men's or women's loos is.

Myunicornfliessideways Tue 06-Feb-18 15:01:30

I've seen suggestions that disabled toilets not be labelled disabled/accessible toilets if they are going to be designated for gender neutral use, as this puts 'stigma' on the gender neutral users. confused As quoted by Theresa May, Rightthink is that trans is not a mental illness therefore does not qualify as a disability, and many trans people do not have gender dysphoria or believe it's a necessary part of being trans. (Trans people with gender dysphoria who argue this are referred to by the slur 'truscum'. )

No, I don't think a new group should be provided for by redesignating and sharing the provision made for an existing group, who campaigned long and hard and need it. New provision needs to be created within existing facilities. Yes it's going to be very expensive: so were accessible doors and ramps. Yes, it's going to take time to implement. Disabled people are still waiting in many cases for places to become accessible, and have to fight for their hard won wheelchair places with people with buggies who feel their needs are more important. Change takes time.

zzzzz Tue 06-Feb-18 15:01:33

So less people will be using the single sex loos and more people would be using the disabled loos? Would we not need to increase the number of toilets for this subset then or are we just expecting them to hold on a bit longer?

NoHaudinMaWheest Tue 06-Feb-18 15:08:15

Our local FE college has already done this. The disabled loos are labelled disabled/all gender. hmm
Given their general attitude to disability, it doesn't surprise me but makes me angry that people who have real experience of discrimination are once more pushed aside.

GoodyHumbygge Tue 06-Feb-18 15:11:50

Loos for disabled people are already sparse. If however they provided many more general purpose unisex loos (self contained cubicles leading off a public area) that would be a solution. So people with physical disabilities, bowel conditions, autism, mothers with sons/fathers with daughters, baby change, people with gender dysphoria who feel uncomfortable in the bathroom allocated to their sex etc etc could all use them. Then the standard M/F loos used strictly by sex.

pombal Tue 06-Feb-18 15:16:30

I think the loo solution is to make the men’s gender neutral and put in more cubicles- some women don’t mind gender neutral facilities.
Keep the ladies for women and transmen and disabled loos for those with a disability-simples innitsmile

Weezol Tue 06-Feb-18 15:19:04

Disabled toilets and baby changing are for those that need them, that don't have an alternative regardless of biological sex. Lots of disabilities are invisible. I really can't imagine anyone choosing to identify as 'disabled' or pretending to change a baby at random.

I'm supposedly a 'Terf' according to TRA dogma, however, a TIM may well have an ileostomy (like me), a rubbish spine and knees (like me) and Crohn's (like me) all of which are invisible. They may not, but I work on the basis that the majority of prople use accessible toilets because they need to.

Prior to needing a walking aid, I have had nasty comments made when exiting an accessible toilet and I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I have had people banging on the door to tell me to hurry up. I have been tutted at and more. When I was younger, this very nearly destroyed my confidence. Now I'm older I can handle it, I usually ignore it but have once said that 'I shit into a bag through a loop of bowel sticking out of my abdomen. I am sorry you find that unacceptable' to a particularly unpleasant woman.

Disability is not considerate of how old you are, what you wear, what sex you are, how much you earn or where you live, what your sexuality is or what colour you are. It doesn't care about your holiday plans or your career. It's an equal opportunity fucker and can damage every part of your life. And the cherry on top is the judgemental society we live in.

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