What rights to transgender people not have?(27 Posts)
I was speaking this afternoon with a colleague about the GRA and trans issues more generally. She is generally supportive of trans people and can't see the conflict with women's rights. She was busy with other stuff, so I had a bit of a rant, and our call ended on good terms.
She emailed me later saying, among other things, that the rights of transpeople need to be protected.
I don't see that trans people currently have any rights which are not set out and protected by existing legislation, i.e., Equality Act 2010, Same Sex Marriage legislation and the GRA 2004.
I've asked her what additional rights she thinks they have.
In the meantime, can anyone here think of any rights that transgender individuals don't currently have?
Trans people have rights over and above those that women have, and need to make their minds up. Are they women or not.
Misogyny is still not a hate crime. When it is, women will have the same rights that trans people have.
Meanwhile, women have fewer rights than trans people. We no longer have the right to an identity, autonomy or free association. Those are the ones that actually matter.
Women are erased if trans women are women.
This is homophobic.
I agree, can’t particularly see what rights they don’t have already. Vague (as in using other reasons why they didn’t get it) discrimination for jobs, difficulty dating, abuse on the street? They problem is how would they solve ‘hidden discrimination’ anyway. Secondly, welcome to being a woman - not all it’s cracked up to be, is it?
My colleague has decided that she's really not up for discussing this, and that we'll have to agree to disagree.
This is a common response, I've found, to direct questions which challenge support for trans. They have no answer, but instead of saying that, they simply end the discussion.
Some seem that have the right to abuse, bully and threaten (and beat up) women. But this seems to be mostly just those in possession of a penis, and ‘male aggression’ stereotypes. Interesting turn of events.
I used to not say stuff like that, or think it really, and try to see both sides.
I'm just fucked off now, it's a piss take.
It is being seen as a 'right' to be treated exactly the same as if they were a born biological women in every conceivable way to validate their internal, subjective choice.
In effect that means the right to usurp the boundaries of all biological women's consent and spaces, to remove sex segregation, to remove the right of women to meet apart from the supervision of men, to remove the right of women to classify themselves by biology, to fundamentally change language, fundamentally change law, fundamentally affect the rights of women and children regarding safeguarding... massive, massive stomping on everyone else's rights, purely for the single right of 'validation'. Because it is a 'fundamental right' to be recognised and believed. Apparently. But only if you're male.
I keep pointing out to people: legal rights and human rights are finite and specific, and easily Googled. You can't just make them up. The massive majority of this will not stand up in court.
I remember posing this question on another thread, and Curry (one of our relatively regular trans posters) said as far as she was concerned, the current legislation gave her equal rights. All self-ID would do would be to remove gate keeping (which she thought was a bad thing - one of the issues with the current movement is that it is ripping away all professional psychological support from trans people who have genuine body dysphoria).
(I'm more than happy to call Curry she, btw, she has never been anything other than respectful and prepared to engage and discuss).
Oooh I forgot overturn all understanding of and legal protections against homophobia, thank you Up I forgot that one. That's another great side effect of this 'right'.
Lovely, generous, intersectional, inclusive philosophy this is!
Someone needs to come up with the 'rights' that are actually involved.
'We demand the right to prevent women meeting without men present'
'We demand the right to prevent parents knowing about what other adults are doing with their child'
'We demand the right to put fully intact men into every woman's changing room, hospital ward and toilet, and to prevent women mentioning or complaining about the x% raped annually in the UK'
'We demand the right for sex offenders to live with vulnerable women in women's prisons'
'We demand the right to erase lesbian and gay people'
'We demand the right to a new homophobia movement that prevents straight men being denied sex by gay women'
'We demand the right for young children to be chemically castrated and surgically mutilated on the instructions of men who never experienced or lived this reality themselves as children'
'We demand the right to give women smear tests whether or not they consent, or to deny them medical care if they do not conform to our instructions'
I could go on. And on. And on.
But legislation protection a person from homophobia won’t count here because they are women. Absolutely are.
Well they certainly have the right to bore and irritate the rest of us, which a number of them appear to be exercising enthusiastically.
@Hairy - yes, it would be good to hear from Curry.
I can't think of any rights not currently available to trans people, and their rights are certainly taking precedence over those of women.
Yes, ending the discussion with no answer is so common. I once asked what it means for my gender to align with my sex ( a friend said I was “obviously” cis because my gender aligned). I pointed out that I am very gender non conforming - so am I cis? Does my gender align? Nope, no answer. Just a shrug and “I don’t know”. And I pressed - “well, please try and answer. It’s kinda important to know if I’m cis or trans”. Nope, couldn’t say. It’s bizarre. It’s like they are super invested and passionate about this issue, but then you ask the most easiest questions and they can’t answer and immedietly stop engaging. Or, another common tactic is to accuse me of “trolling” - as in “oh come on, you know what gender alignment really means”!
I've been reading back over the exchange I had with my colleague, before she bowed out rather than answer my question about the rights which trans people currently lack.
All along she was concerned about trans people, their feelings, their rights, whereas I was talking about the erosion of women's rights. I spoke about how lesbians are adversely affected when their partner transitions - how they can't even name their own sexuality as lesbians because now they are supposedly in a relationship with a "man". Her response to that was to focus on the transgender partner in the relationship and how I couldn't deny them the right to transition. She ignored the impact of that transition on the partner.
She also said that she couldn't imagine what it must be like for your sense of gender id not to match your body. And referred to ciswomen. In my last response to her I pointed out that I am not cis and that I do know what it is like for my "gender" and my female body to to match.
As I begin to speak out more, these exchanges are frustrating yes, but also useful in that if I can recognise their particular perspective I can address it more effectively.
I know what it's like for "gender" and body NOT to match.
Oh, for an edit button. I need to preview before I post!
The only ‘right’ they are currently denied is to say they are actual woman without challenge.
I assume the 'rights' that are referred to are things to do with access to trans-specific medical treatment. Things that aren't necessarily rights for anyone else because they're specific needs that only relate to trans people.
Whose rights, feelings were suppressed here?
Whose history is being re-written?
Who was in control?
I assume the 'rights' that are referred to are things to do with access to trans-specific medical treatment. Things that aren't necessarily rights for anyone else because they're specific needs that only relate to trans people
Women are well-renowned for their Mengele like efforts to stop trans people accessing medical help.
The right to appropriate medical treatment (for anyone) is covered under the Human Rights Act 1998, iirc.
So that ones already covered.
There are issues with how current law is enforced re discrimination etc, but that is not exclusive to trans people.
And I mean proper discrimination, not "misgendering"
I wish I’d know this many moons ago when I was a teenager. Went and had most of my hair shaved off and wore 501s (yes it was that long ago).
Thought I looked the bees knees until a woman knocked into me on a shop and said ‘sorry there son, ur ye alright?’
It’s like when you ask the perfectly simple question, “OK so if he is now a woman, how do you define ‘woman’?,” and they can’t answer you. I get replies like, “how do YOU define woman?” and I’m like errrrr....
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