Can I comment on a women's group at work?

[DaveSpart]

I’m a man working in a medium-sized company in a strongly male-dominated industry. At my company, it has recently been proposed that we set up a women’s group for networking, mentoring, training, and discussing how to improve the work environment for women. Of course, I’m in favour of the idea, and hope it will help women be better-represented and more successful in the company.

However, the proposal is for this group to be open to anyone who self-identifies as a woman.
As a subscriber to the radfem analysis of sex and gender, I think this is a terrible idea, but I’m not sure if I have any standing to voice my concerns. The women I’ve talked to seem perfectly happy to include TIMs in their group, and it doesn’t seem like it’s any of my business for me to say it might be a bad idea.

I guess I could raise the objection that TIMs would be obtaining an unfair advantage over me by being able to join the group, but that seems disingenuous - it's very low down on my list of concerns. And perhaps it sounds a little pathetic too.
I have, along with other people, been invited to comment on the proposals, so speaking out wouldn’t be completely out of the blue.

What do you think? Should I say something, or keep my mouth shut?

[glenthebattleostrich]

You'd probably be listened to before any woman raising an objection so yeah, go ahead.

[ATeardropExplodes]

My question would be 'why are you setting up a woman's group in the first place, if anyone can join. Also, if you 'self-identify' it means that you are opening a group for men who self identify as woman, thereby blocking actual women who don't self-identify from joining, so what you are setting up is a trans woman's group. Which is fine but then you are discriminating against actual women'.

Why not suggest two groups? Surely they will need different things in the workplace?

[AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth]

I think it's very possible that there are women there who are too intimidated to speak out, so please do, as the consequences appear to affect men less than woman and it may encourage them to

It may fall on deaf ears, but at least you did the honourable thing

[IrkThePurist]

Please do, you arent speaking over anyone. Remind them that sex is a protected characteristic.

[Trills]

If you are neither an organiser nor interested in joining, it's really none of your business.

[EamonnWright]

If you are neither an organiser nor interested in joining, it's really none of your business

This is not how the world works, fortunately.

[AssassinatedBeauty]

I'm not sure why you've been asked for feedback on this group?

But seeing as you've been asked, if you feel brave enough, I would query whether self identifying is appropriate. This group is being set up to challenge sex-based discrimination not gender identity discrimination, so it should be sex segregated and it based on self identified gender identity.

[IrenetheQuaint]

I'm not sure that this is a battle to fight at work, tbh. It will just get nasty and my experience is that difficult transwomen are much more of a problem on the internet than they are in workplaces. At most organisations there will be no transwomen, or perhaps one or two perfectly nice and sensible ones who should be welcomed into the group - but there will be dozens of trans supporters who will kick up a massive fuss and derail everything if you try to ban transwomen.

(Plus, you're a man so it's not really your problem anyway.)

[IvorBiggun]

I think don’t make the group so specific in the first place. Call it a women’s group and then if a hypothertical man decides to try to join you say no if and when it arises.

Approach the matter from a “let’s keep it simple - call it a women’s group because it’s for women”. Don’t start trying to complicate it or looking for trouble before you’ve even begun.

If a man in your organisation suddenly decided he was going to self identify as a woman they would have to do it in all work contexts, not just this group.

That said, I have a fundamental problem with setting up women’s groups to solve the problems women face: problems caused by preferential treatment of men, by men, for men. By all means set enable women to set up networks and facilitate support and sharing. If you want to fix the other stuff then you need to have everyone at the table, including those people who are currently part of the problem.

It’s not up to the minority of women to solve the discrimination perpetrated against them.

[ArcheryAnnie]

I think ATeardropExplodes comment is the way to go, OP.

Sadly, you will be listened to in a way that women are not. And you probably won't be told to Die In A Fire, either.

[newtlover]

Or, you could just turn up to the group and say you identify as a woman
'no, really, I am a woman
what, this beard? I'm expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman'
....and then maybe they'll see WHY self id is nonsense

[ATeardropExplodes]

I've changed my response...

networking, mentoring, training, and discussing how to improve the work environment for women

I'd actually go back to the management and say that if there is a recognised issue on networking, mentoring, training and improvements that need to be made for women, then they need to be officially identified through an existing mechanism that includes representatives from all areas of the business. As PP said, it isn't the job of women to solve the problems, it is the job of the business in order to retain good people.

[Vicxy]

I don't see a problem with letting people know (as you have been asked, why have you been asked by the way?) that you find it pretty nonsensical. I imagine most people find it pretty nonsensical but many won't dare voice that for fear of trouble at work. If you feel strongly on it, which it seems you do, and you really have been asked what you think of it, I don't see the harm in being honest.

[Datun]

Do you actually have any men identifying as women in the company?

The problem with this is who will try and gain access.

If it's a militant transwoman, the women are buggered.

They will soon realise that the transwoman is dictating everything.

If you just have a quiet, under the radar type of transwoman, they very likely won't want to join anyway.

If you intervene, you will get pushback. Probably from the women themselves who don't realise what's at stake.

If a militant transwoman wants to join, the women will wise up, so it may not be a bad thing.

Frankly, I wouldn't intervene just on a point of principle. I would try and find out who is going to access the group first.

I understand what other posters are saying about including men, in order for the proposed policies to be implemented.

But, in my experience, women may not say exactly what they are thinking if men are present.

It's a Good Thing that you have thought about this.

[DaveSpart]

Thanks for all the comments - they're very helpful.
To answer a couple of questions people asked:

This would be an official company-sponsored thing, hence asking a wider group of people for their opinion. I'm sure if was organic and self-organised then no-one would have asked me!

As far as I'm aware, we don't have any men identifying as women; certainly not any aggressively transgressive transactivists. We do have some people of both sexes who identify as non-binary, with gender-neutral pronouns. I'm unsure whether they would have any interest in a women's group.

My current feeling is (as suggested by people above) that if the purpose of this is to improve our company culture, then there needs to be a group with everyone represented. That group could / should be led by women, and there could be women-only discussions feeding in to it, but it should include men too. If that's the case, it would make sense for other marginalised groups (including various gender identities) to feed into the process in the same way, via their own dedicated discussion groups.

I doubt anything very dramatic will happen, but I will report back if it does.