Talk

Advanced search

Is it legal for a man to use the women's toilet in England? Scotland?

(188 Posts)
SerciteEland Mon 15-Jan-18 17:31:43

If not, can someone please point me to where I can find text of the law regulating this? I've tried searching here to no avail: www.legislation.gov.uk/search

I was always under the impression that it WAS illegal for a man to enter the women's room but now I'm not so sure and it seems a rather hard thing to search for.

I assume it must be since apparently a reading of the 2010 Equality Act has been invoked to allow transgender women to use the women's room. www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-36395646

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/19

But I can't seem to find the original law prohibiting men from being in the ladies'.

Further, I've only really started to pay attention to the trans issue within the last few years (first as an ally from 2011-2014 and thereafter becoming progressively more and more gender critical after hitting peak trans in 2014/15) and I somehow entirely missed that it's now apparently legal for trans women to be in the women's bathrooms. Does anyone have links to good information on how this happened (focused on the UK)? And have there been any documented abuses of it so far?

IrkThePurist Mon 15-Jan-18 18:18:45

There is no law prohibiting anyone from using the toilet of the opposite sex. I've seen men take their kids into the women's to change them or help them, and no one minds. I've used the mens in an emergency and it makes men uncomfortable.

One problem is that if a man goes in to act inappropriately (eg to act out a fetish, masturbate, or assault someone), someone has to make a complaint.
Now all he has to do is say he identifies as trans and it becomes a legal hot potato.

Another problem is that having nothing in law means in some cases staff have to decide who gets to use which room. I dont think thats fair on them.

This is the advice being given out at the moment;
www.antheamakepeace.co.uk/toiletissue.pdf
''The best way to be protected against discrimination under the 2010 Equality act is to go to your GP and have a
discussion about how you are considering transitioning, you don't have to start the process to be protected once
you've had such a conversation.''

It only mentions mens rights. It doesnt mention the rights of women who can only use a women only bathroom.
Because trans women dont care about them.

This is the guidance the government equalities office provides on this issue:
www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/85009/businesssummary.pdf

All it says is that you cannot stop a trans person using a unisex facility, which is reasonable.

EamonnWright Mon 15-Jan-18 18:22:50

If you had told me 10 years ago that there was a group of people campaigning to allow men into women's places like changing rooms prisons etc and they had the support of political parties I would have chalked you down as being off your rocker.

Deathraystare Thu 18-Jan-18 19:21:06

Well, let's hope they enjoy queuing!

YetAnotherSpartacus Fri 19-Jan-18 12:51:18

There is no law prohibiting anyone from using the toilet of the opposite sex. I've seen men take their kids into the women's to change them or help them, and no one minds

Actually, I have seen this and I do mind very much.

Styrla Sun 21-Oct-18 20:15:16

I completely agree. I had the misfortune of opening the cubical door to a bloke putting something in the bin right outside the door and scared me half to death! He was like oh I’m just helping my wife change the baby. But I’m not being funny there were parent rooms and baby changing facilities around the corner they could have both gone in together without making me and a load of other women feel uncomfortable. A women’s toilet is a safe place where we can pee, pop and change sanitary products in private without worrying that a stranger of the opposite sex is around.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer Sun 21-Oct-18 20:26:29

The law doesnt say anything as far as i know

I dont think men should be in the ladies loo for any reason, as ive said before personally i dont have a problem with transwomen...but i do have a problem with men taking the piss

No pun intended

Imnobody4 Sun 21-Oct-18 20:29:29

Is common law any use here? I have never had any expectation of men in Women's toilets my whole life. Same for my mother. It might not be actual law but then it's been so accepted I doubt it's been challenged.

merrymouse Sun 21-Oct-18 20:39:45

No laws about who can and can’t enter a toilet. Just laws about what you can’t do when you are there.

scotsheather Sun 21-Oct-18 20:49:27

Yes is the short answer. A lot of people don't like that fact. Until recently it seemed a self regulatory thing - men use mens and women use womens without question.

Farahilda Sun 21-Oct-18 20:52:35

There has never been legislation about this, and common law (ie caselaw, precedent is AFAIK silent about. it too.

However other laws cover crimes (and can cover antisocial behaviour) wherever it takes place.

MrsAird Sun 21-Oct-18 21:08:07

The way the law currently stands in England is this.

It is not illegal for a man to go into the Ladies.

It would normally be illegal for the owner of the building to stop a man doing something that a woman can do, eg go into a certain set of toilets, because that would be discrimination under the Equality Act 2010.
But in certain circumstances, such as toilets/changing rooms etc, it is permitted for the owner of the building to allow women in and keep men out, because they are allowed to have single-sex services in these limited circumstances (Equality Act Schedule 3).

As a result, women currently can feel confident to challenge a man who comes into the Ladies because the owner of the building appears to have provided a single-sex service, and men should not be coming in.

The position gets clouded by three things.

Firstly, it is illegal to discriminate against a transgender person on the grounds of their transgender characteristic This is often used by TRA to say that transgender people must be able to access any areas they want, otherwise it is discrimination. This was the argument being used in the BBC piece that the OP linked to. But this is wrong. Discrimination happens when you treat a person worse than you would do if they did not have that characteristic. So in our present example, a man who is transgender, who is being stopped from entering the Ladies, is not being stopped due to his transgender status, it is because he is a man. He is being treated the same as a man who is not transgender. This is permitted due to single-sex services, as above. It is not discrimination and it is not against the law.

Secondly, a person who has obtained a Gender Rights Certificate must be treated for all purposes as if he/she was the opposite sex. What does this mean for the single-sex services? It has not been tested in law. On the face of it, it means that anybody with a GRC can go into single-sex services designed for the opposite sex and nobody can stop them. This is why self-ID is such a big deal, because it means that anyone can get a GRC.

Thirdly, real life. In practice, nobody asks for documentation before going into toilets. Anybody can walk in. But if a person is obviously a man, at the moment women can shout and complain and challenge them. If self-ID is introduced, those women who challenge and complain may find themselves being sued, being arrested, or at the very least, being chucked out of the venue, or being told that they are transphobic and must accept this male person.
The big problem is that so many large organisations have fallen for the lies about what the law currently says, and have changed their policies to say that self identified gender is what matters.

wingwarbler Sun 21-Oct-18 21:08:47

It was based on respect though wasn't it. For women, privacy, dignity and for social conventions, other people's opinions. For not wanting to be accused of being a pervert by being a man seen using the women's loos. Not having to have laws to make sure people respect other people's spaces, people just did. These are all good things.

Now the trans ideology and genderists are saying (men) do you what you like, you don't need respect, or to consider anyone else, only yourself. What are women going to do? Complain? Let them. We'll also make laws to make sure you can force yourself amongst unwilling women.

How is this progress? It isn't.

Qgd2019 Sun 25-Aug-19 01:43:53

I am actually a transwoman and however you wanna insult me and people like me over petty nonsense is your problem. Males and females use your bathroom at home. If someone wants to sexually assault people I doubt they would go through the hassle of pretending to be trans to do it. They'd just sexually assault women and kids in the street, This is transphobia. We just wanna pee. Leave us alone.

DustyGrapevine Sun 25-Aug-19 02:01:03

I am so fed up with the argument that these interlopers just want to be left alone to urinate in peace.

I feel like I've read it a million times and it's starting to make me very angry indeed.

Here's the message. WOMEN JUST WANT TO BE LEFT TO USE THE BATHROOM IN PEACE.

Get it?

We shouldn't have to fight and argue and defend and push-back against the discourtesy of newcomers barging in without considering our prior claim and our communally agreed privacy.

This isn't just about the law, but about outsiders deciding to try to overturn social and cultural norms without any thought for he feelings of those already there.

We don't want you there. Leave US in peace to go to the loo you bunch of spoilt toddlers.

Fraggling Sun 25-Aug-19 02:11:17

There aren't laws about bogs.

It was a commonly understood social thing.

Which has been eroded.

Nowhere to hide, now.

Fraggling Sun 25-Aug-19 02:14:51

I think that there is a lack of understanding of the range of troubling behaviour that girls and women are subjected to, that is not illegal. That is the gap here.

Lollygaggles Sun 25-Aug-19 02:17:58

Thank you MrsAird,

I wish we could sticky your post somewhere on here, so that more women see it and we can feel confident in protecting our own spaces.
I will print it out.

AnotherAdultHumanFemale Sun 25-Aug-19 02:36:49

Really interesting thread, thanks to those who shared valuable information.

I find it amazing that some people still can't see that if any man can call themselves a woman through self ID and access women's spaces, then abusive males will (and already do) use that as a very easy loophole to get access to women and girls. This doesn't mean we think all trans people are abusers, it means we have an issue with self ID.

Women have had an element of safety for decades by having our own toilets. If any man can enter them, that safety is lost. A lot of women, especially disabled and religious women, for fear of encountering a man in the toilets, will just stay at home rather than go to the gym, go shopping etc in case they need to use a public toilet. This therefore has huge implications for the rights and liberties of women - it effectively erodes and removes them, in favour of men who want to use our toilets.

I find it strange when people genuinely can't see the issues here, which are glaringly obvious.

AncientLights Sun 25-Aug-19 02:47:10

Some people are willfully blind AdultHuman. Anyone who writes stupidity such as the 'men use your bathroom at home' line and thinks they are making a valid argument is simply showing they have no grasp of the realities of women's lives. Or maybe they know they are being gf.

ShortCircuit181 Sun 25-Aug-19 02:53:09

I've seen men take their kids into the women's to change them or help them, and no one minds. I've used the mens in an emergency and it makes men uncomfortable.

I'm guessing the reason for said men's unease is because many of them will have their genitalia out whilst using the urinals, unlike in the women's where everybody has their modesty protected by a cubicle.

That said, I do know more than a couple of men who've admitted to sneaking into the ladies at work when they need to drop a deuce as it's so much cleaner than the men's.

ShortCircuit181 Sun 25-Aug-19 02:55:33

You shouldn't really be using the men's though unless you're happy for them to do the same.

GirlDownUnder Sun 25-Aug-19 03:08:38

Males and females use your bathroom at home.

Eh? That’ll be my family and friends then? I’m sure my bathroom at home isn’t a public one? Or did I miss a memo?

Datun Sun 25-Aug-19 03:12:40

This is transphobia. We just wanna pee. Leave us alone.

Don't be silly. If you need to pee, use the men's please.

NotBadConsidering Sun 25-Aug-19 03:33:35

I doubt they would go through the hassle of pretending to be trans to do it. They'd just sexually assault women and kids in the street, This is transphobia. We just wanna pee

Tell that to the two child victims of Katie Dolatowski, sexually assaulted in toilets.

Also, weird to resurrect a Zombie thread to to express outrage. hmm

Agrona Sun 25-Aug-19 04:22:14

Why do a certain group of people like to resurrect threads in order to insult women? It seems to commonly occur on weekends.

Women wanting to maintain their single sex provisions is not transphobia. Why should women put transwoman’s demands above their own needs and rights? Many women fear men due to experience. Demands to include people they perceive as men into their segregated areas is cruel.

Outanabout Sun 25-Aug-19 05:46:11

Waah we just want to pee, why are women so MEAN?

TurboTeddy Sun 25-Aug-19 06:01:41

I doubt they would go through the hassle of pretending to be trans to do it.

Ah the old "you're accusing trans people of being predators and perverts so, you're tansphobic" argument. A Middleborough Conservative councillor made campaigning for gender neutral toilets his top priority after being elected, he's subsequently been arrested on nine charges of child sexual abuse. He is not trans but normalising men in women's spaces is a gift to people like that.

I've also seen a story from a student social worker who reported that at the start of their course, in a class of 70, the tutor stated, statistically 1-3 of the students would be training in order to gain access to vulnerable children for the purposes of abusing them. So yeah, putting on a dress and some lippy doesn't seem like a huge effort for predators to go to.

I'm quite sure the trans lobby can see the merit of these arguments but chooses to gaslight us because validating trans identity is more important that other people's safety.

Datun Sun 25-Aug-19 06:07:37

So yeah, putting on a dress and some lippy doesn't seem like a huge effort for predators to go to.

Which isn't necessary anyway.

AlessandraAsteriti Sun 25-Aug-19 07:30:41

@Ogd2019
UNESCO has specific programmes to promote segregated toilets around the world, because it is recognised as a policy that protect women and girls from sexual assault. What makes the West special that women and girls in UK, US etc do not deserve this basic protection? People who are male-bodied should not have access to spaces for females. This is really simple. If it is true that males are not dangerous, surely you can use their toilet. Problem solved.

terryleather Sun 25-Aug-19 07:30:55

I am actually a transwoman and however you wanna insult me and people like me

Wait a minute, I was under the impression that using the term transwoman instead of trans woman was transphobic.

How curious...

AlessandraAsteriti Sun 25-Aug-19 07:32:52

I doubt they would go through the hassle of pretending to be trans to do it.
Some pedophiles go through the hassle of becoming priests in order to rape and assault little boys and girls. What really is the hassle of pretending to be trans?

Prawnofthepatriarchy Sun 25-Aug-19 07:56:31

We just wanna pee. Leave us alone.

Then do so in the toilets provided for your sex. It's perfectly safe. You just said so.

FormerMediocreMale Sun 25-Aug-19 08:11:34

Qgd2019

I am actually a transwoman and however you wanna insult me and people like me over petty nonsense is your problem. Males and females use your bathroom at home.

As you are not bothered by males and females sharing (based on the ridiculous comparison to home env) use the gents and let women have the safety and dignity if the ladies.

A phobia is an irrational fear, there is nothing irrational about females being scared of males in public toilets.

Qgd2019 Sun 25-Aug-19 08:55:52

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

GCAcademic Sun 25-Aug-19 09:00:23

Males and females use your bathroom at home.

I know the people I share a house with, or who visit it. I don’t know you from Adam.

Datun Sun 25-Aug-19 09:02:08

Aggressive responses saying you're sick of parents trying to protect their kids? On a parenting website? To underline your argument to women's and girl's intimate space?

🤣

GCAcademic Sun 25-Aug-19 09:02:31

Perhaps if you don’t like parents who are concerned about paedophiles, a parenting website isn’t the place for you. I believe here are other websites available which may be more to your taste.

Qgd2019 Sun 25-Aug-19 09:03:16

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

GCAcademic Sun 25-Aug-19 09:07:06

Translation: “Big meanies, you’re howwible [stamps foot], and you’ve had children, ewww.”

The gynaephobia is strong with this one.

GirlDownUnder Sun 25-Aug-19 09:08:28

NB not a mum

shock

Oh noes how will you cope Qgd2019

Btw, what where you researching <head tilt>

GirlDownUnder Sun 25-Aug-19 09:09:21

Oh and they’ve gone

Bye then 👋

Qgd2019 Sun 25-Aug-19 09:09:29

Just letting you all know too that I'm putting this forum on display in the pub I own to show what vile pond life stay at home parents are. Some of my staff are parents and they have no problems with me being around their kids or using the female toilets. Heck my supervisor even took me swimming with her kids. The pool has a mixed changing room. There are never any complaints. I'll bet most of you never even go to pubs restaurants or sports facilities.

Joisanofthedales Sun 25-Aug-19 09:12:11

QgdI
f we are so horrible then the best thing for you to do is take yourself off to a forum that appreciates laydees. Here we appreciate safe guarding children and women's rights which obviously isn't something you have an interest in. Why not go and look at one of those internet sites we don't want our children to look at. You know you want to. sad

GirlDownUnder Sun 25-Aug-19 09:13:28

Hey Qgd2019 if you get another post deleted you’ll be banned.

Just saying.

I’d hate for there not to be a protector of the loos or whatevs.

I’m not sure what your pub story is meant to prove but I’m sure you’ll make an excellent Sherpa smile

GCAcademic Sun 25-Aug-19 09:15:22

Nope, never go to pubs, restaurant or sports facilities, ever. Once women have reproduced, you see, our vaginas emit blocking signals that stop us entering any place of adult recreation so that we can devote ourselves 100% to pursing our lips joylessly and ruining the adult fun of these who like to visit immoral websites.

GirlDownUnder Sun 25-Aug-19 09:19:20

GCAcademic oooohh all this time I thought it was saggy tits that keep mums tied to the kitchen sink.

Every day’s a school day brew

Datun Sun 25-Aug-19 09:19:24

I think, and I may be wrong, it's just a hunch, that the pub story is meant to prove that Qgd2019 is a stranger to the truth since they both own the pub but are also supervised there...

Still it would be useful to display this thread to as many people as possible.

Mamello Sun 25-Aug-19 09:24:55

Darn it. Was going to take kids swimming and then pub lunch after a long week at work but apparently that's not an MNetty thing to do. I just can't get this womanning thing right.

Joisanofthedales Sun 25-Aug-19 09:31:18

gcacademic
Thank you that really made me belly laugh. Thank God I wasn't drinking my tea. It took away the nasty taste of qdc's posts.

Lamahaha Sun 25-Aug-19 09:32:27

Males and females use your bathroom at home.

Do people at home allow random strangers to walk in off the street and use their toilets? Certainly not in my home.

You can do so in yours, if you care to, @Qgd2019. But not in mine.
I don't want you in my toilet, and I don't want you in women's loos. Most women don't. Go to the men's, or lobby for third spaces as women did for their own.

Grimbles Sun 25-Aug-19 09:33:40

Just letting you all know too that I'm putting this forum on display in the pub I own to show what vile pond life stay at home parents are.

Ooooooooh...... tremble 😱

Lamahaha Sun 25-Aug-19 09:37:10

ooops. posted too soon, I totally missed page 2 and qgd's now deleted posts. Missed all the fun!

GCAcademic Sun 25-Aug-19 09:53:39

Ooh, I missed the bit where we must all be stay at home parents. I suppose that not being able to have kids and work goes hand in hand with not being able to visit pubs, restaurants and sporting facilities, lol!

Datun Sun 25-Aug-19 09:59:24

Because kids are never taken to restaurants, and certainly never go to sporting facilities. That's the last place you take a child.

Or, in fact any other place that has public toilets!

I think that poster is a trolling teen.

TurboTeddy Sun 25-Aug-19 10:03:04

Just letting you all know too that I'm putting this forum on display in the pub I own

At just after 9am on a Sunday morning? That's either one hell of a lock in OR it's a Wetherspoons.

sackrifice Sun 25-Aug-19 10:05:10

Just letting you all know too that I'm putting this forum on display in the pub I own to show what vile pond life stay at home parents are.

Genuinely cracked me up this. Oh my days.

NotBadConsidering Sun 25-Aug-19 10:05:36

How will it be displayed? Power point? Printed? Either way can you make sure everyone can see any read this:

GOOGLE KATIE DOLATOWSKI IF YOU DON’T THINK WOMEN HAVE ANYTHING TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT.

Feel free to enlarge the font etc.

sackrifice Sun 25-Aug-19 10:07:00

If it ain't LAMINATED and in COMIC SANS I ain't interested.

NotBadConsidering Sun 25-Aug-19 10:10:31

🤣🤣 laminated!

Birdsfoottrefoil Sun 25-Aug-19 10:12:25

Just letting you all know too that I'm putting this forum on display in the pub I own

Good. Could you particularly highlight the post that gives the correct information about the Equality Act : that in order not to discriminate agains transwo men they must be treated the same as other men and use the toilets appropriate to their sex - the men’s.

GCAcademic Sun 25-Aug-19 10:13:57

I suppose having my words displayed in a pub is the closest I’ll ever come to being in a pub. You know, being a woman and that.

sackrifice Sun 25-Aug-19 10:16:52

I suppose having my words displayed in a pub is the closest I’ll ever come to being in a pub. You know, being a woman and that

If they make the font big enough you could perhaps read it from the door?

sackrifice Sun 25-Aug-19 10:17:47

Not that i think they have a pub in the first place.

A laminator, yes. Pub, not a chance.

Iminthewrongstory Sun 25-Aug-19 10:19:53

This thread has taken an unexpected and hilarious turn.

Datun Sun 25-Aug-19 10:27:17

Just letting you all know too that I'm putting this forum on display in the pub I own to show what vile pond life stay at home parents are.

I feel I ought to point out that telling your (fictitious) pub clientele, who happen to be parents, that they are vile pondlife may effect your (imaginary) income.

SheWhoMustBeSilent Sun 25-Aug-19 10:29:39

The Equality Act 2010, in Schedule 3, section 27 subsection 6 says this:

(6) The condition is that—

(a) the service is provided for, or is likely to be used by, two or more persons at the same time, and

(b) the circumstances are such that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex.

So, there is provision for women, when using a toilet space that is for more than one person of the female sex at a time can object to any man using that same space and have him removed.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/3/part/7/crossheading/singlesex-services

ShortCircuit181 Sun 25-Aug-19 10:29:58

I don't think it helps the case that so many women are happy to use the men's 'in an emergency', something which the majority of blokes wouldn't dream of doing. There needs to be consistency.

GirlDownUnder Sun 25-Aug-19 10:30:14

Oi oi you lot

Def has a pub - I found it by their sneaky use of subliminal advertising by way of “putting this forum on display” = “laminators”. We were sucked in.

Datun Sun 25-Aug-19 10:58:47

ShortCircuit181

I'm sure the last thing that women want to do is use the gents. But in an emergency, what do you suggest? That they wet themselves? Bleed all over their clothes? If men are caught short, their anatomy means they have far more alternatives than women.

There should be no such thing as a woman who needs to use the gents in an emergency. Women's toilet provision should be ample. If it isn't, please don't blame women.

sackrifice Sun 25-Aug-19 11:09:06

Def has a pub - I found it by their sneaky use of subliminal advertising by way of “putting this forum on display” = “laminators”. We were sucked in.

Dammit jannit.

sackrifice Sun 25-Aug-19 11:09:43

I don't think it helps the case that so many women are happy to use the men's 'in an emergency'

I don't think 'happy' is the correct descriptor of this situation.

CharlieParley Sun 25-Aug-19 12:17:51

Crikey, what an entertaining tantrum that was. I can confirm that since giving birth some 20 years ago I have duly stayed at home and not been seen in public. Properly chained to the kitchen sink and all that...

Do you think our visitor would faint if he knew the truth? That out there in the big bad world stay-at-home parents can be found in the wild, frequenting every place he does?

As for the men and women using my bathroom at home - well, yes, people I know. Never at the same time though as there is only one toilet in both of the bathrooms we have. As I live in a household full of men and boys, I have very firmly asserted my boundaries and there is categorically no sharing while I "pee in peace".

GirlDownUnder Sun 25-Aug-19 12:26:43

This thread is why I heart MN posters. ❤️

We are funny. We can extract the urine without rancour and blimey are we sharp.

You know, I never really see our counterparts take a post as goody as our new friends and make something good out of it.

Maybe our special sewing skills of ‘silk purse out of a sows ear’ is what maketh the women.

GirlDownUnder Sun 25-Aug-19 12:27:49

Goody = goady obvs 🤦‍♀️

AnyOldPrion Sun 25-Aug-19 12:30:31

We can extract the

Sounds like you might be the exact woman to help all these men who just want to pee, Girl...

AnyOldPrion Sun 25-Aug-19 12:31:29

urine

Grumble, grumble, grumble... stupid iPad, deleting words when I add a star....

GirlDownUnder Sun 25-Aug-19 13:57:27

Sounds like you might be the exact woman to help all these men who just want to pee, Girl...

Give me a urethra masculina and a large extracting implement and I’m willing to do a YTS grin

DuMondeB Sun 25-Aug-19 17:25:50

I used to run a very cool London rock bar, back before my uterus chained me to the kitchen sink.

If I were still a licensee in this climate, I would change the toilet door signs for a illustration of genitals, think bus stop cock graffiti and the vulva equivalent.

If you’ve got an outie and you need a pissed up piss, use a urinal.

We separate toilet facilities on the basis of sex, biological, genetic SEX - not gendered feelings or types of outfits.

ShortCircuit181 Sun 25-Aug-19 19:34:09

I'm sure the last thing that women want to do is use the gents. But in an emergency, what do you suggest? That they wet themselves? Bleed all over their clothes?

I agree that it's not unreasonable in an emergency. But if women can use the men's when there's inadequate provision for them, then trans people might ask why should they not use the women's until adequate provision is sorted for them where they'll be free of the danger posed by male violence.

People often talk about 'teaching men to be more accepting' but that's not a quick fix and certainly of no use to the transwomen who needs to pee when the men's football team has just entered the changing room.

Datun Sun 25-Aug-19 21:26:02

I agree that it's not unreasonable in an emergency. But if women can use the men's when there's inadequate provision for them, then trans people might ask why should they not use the women's until adequate provision is sorted for them where they'll be free of the danger posed by male violence.

If transwomen are subjected to male violence in the gents (and there's nothing to suggest they are), how can the answer be to introduce men to the female space?

No thanks.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost Sun 25-Aug-19 21:28:54

how can the answer be to introduce men to the female space?

Because they want it, they really really want it.

And if they don't get it, you are being transphobic.

ShortCircuit181 Mon 26-Aug-19 10:26:15

I don't think anyone should be in the toilet designated for the opposite sex, but if women are going to do it then they can't really moan about men doing it. That's my point.

Datun Mon 26-Aug-19 11:26:43

Women don't often write about men who have to use the ladies in an emergency, because, for instance, they have a three-year-old daughter.

Stop conflating the issues.

Women are complaining about the fact that certain men are now been given to understand that they have the right to come into the female toilets. And disagreement is bigotry.

ShortCircuit181 Mon 26-Aug-19 13:44:01

I agree on the ridiculous nature of the self ID argument, but there are also posters on this thread who think they have the right to use the mens. 🤷‍♀️

Fraggling Mon 26-Aug-19 14:11:22

Fascinating really.

This is the 'you wanted equality, ha! So i can punch you in the face now' school of argument i think.

ShortCircuit181 Mon 26-Aug-19 15:18:54

No, it's the 'practice what you preach' school of argument.

sackrifice Mon 26-Aug-19 15:24:43

I don't think anyone should be in the toilet designated for the opposite sex, but if women are going to do it then they can't really moan about men doing it. That's my point

Men are not using the ladies because there is a lack of toilet provision for men. Men can piss up a wall if they so desire; indeed within a minute of parking up in a city centre on Friday night, I saw two of them pissing up a wall.

Women are not using the men's because they are scared of women in women's toilets. If they use them at all it's when there is NO provision available for women.

You don't seem able to understand the basics here.

butteryellow Mon 26-Aug-19 15:44:54

Males and females use your bathroom at home

Clearly not a mumsnetter, or they'd no that you never let a delivery person/builder use your toilet. It's one of the rules (well except for the people saying 'why the hell not' who've clearly never had a group of 5 tree-surgeons use their downstairs loo and leave it in a state worse than a festival portaloo!)

butteryellow Mon 26-Aug-19 15:47:38

Men are not using the ladies because there is a lack of toilet provision for men. Men can piss up a wall if they so desire; indeed within a minute of parking up in a city centre on Friday night, I saw two of them pissing up a wall.

Exactly this. I don't go in mens' because I feel like it. I have occasionally gone in the mens because it was that or wet myself. If a man is that desperate, they're not going to pick the womens, because there'll already be a massive queue. The only reason is validation. My male partner and children can wee in the garden with nothing more than an eyeroll, but I (in my younger, drunker days) have to find somewhere reasonably sheltered since a little more exposure is required if I want to wee behind a tree!

ShortCircuit181 Mon 26-Aug-19 20:21:12

The self ID issue is admittedly a bit different and not ultimately driven by 'need' in many cases from what I've seen - although some trans women would undoubtedly not feel safe in the gents so this is a separate and distinct motivation.

However, the presence of urinals means that men have their genitalia on display outside of the privacy of a cubicle. Personally, I'd feel pretty uncomfortable if a woman walked in and inadvertently looked at my dick whilst I was mid piss.

ShortCircuit181 Mon 26-Aug-19 20:29:20

I guess what I'm saying is that, trans/self ID issues aside, I'm not particularly enamoured with the idea of people explaining to me why I should be ok with thwm surprising me when I'm in a state of undress/exposed. It's not that dissimilar to the entitlement and lack of regard TRAs display when explaining why they have 'the right' to enter the opposite sex's space.

I'd probably not say anything tbh but I'd be a bit embarrassed if a stranger of the opposite sex walked in when I had my cock out.

ShortCircuit181 Mon 26-Aug-19 20:33:49

The polite thing would probably be to ask a bloke to give a quick heads up first so nobody is 'caught by surprise'.

sackrifice Mon 26-Aug-19 22:18:10

I'd probably not say anything tbh but I'd be a bit embarrassed if a stranger of the opposite sex walked in when I had my cock out.

The numerous men i've seen pissing in public didn't bat a fucking eyelid.

Whereas when a male was in a female toilets and i was the only one there I was petrified.

You worry about being embarrassed whereas we worry about being raped, assaulted or fucking strangled.

Jesus fucking wept.

GirlDownUnder Mon 26-Aug-19 22:59:29

ShortCircuit181 so am I right in saying you’ve never pissed in public? Never on a drunken night out, just stopped to piss on the nearest wall? I think that’d make you pretty unusual.

I’ve seen a lot of men do this, and I’ll be honest I’ve never actually seen their dicks cos a) most men will do as much as poss to shield their junk b) I’m not looking long enough

If I really need to piss, I can’t just fairly discreetly pee against a wall. I have to pull my jeans and undies round my ankles and squat in such a way that I don’t piss on my self.
This position exposes most everything, and would be hard to flee or fight from, all while nicely hobbled.

If it’s that ^ or the men’s - it’s kinda Hobson’s choice.

And none of my reasons for using a men’s is why a man would use a ladies.

hoteltango Mon 26-Aug-19 23:33:09

I think in the past it would have been dealt with under the public order offences act or something like that.

I can well understand a bloke not being happy if a female came in while he was peeing at the urinals. But it isn't the same the other way round. Very few transwomen "pass", so my instinctive reaction would be "there's a man here" and feel more than just very uncomfortable. I do feel sorry for transpeople who are just trying to go about their lives quietly, but they're not the ones at the forefront of what is a very aggressive campaign.

missedith01 Wed 28-Aug-19 07:34:08

I have two sons year 3 and 4, so they're past the age when I want to have eyes on them all the time when we're out, but they're still very much the age when I want to clock them every 30 seconds. grin

The older one refuses to go into the ladies with me, quite right too, and so the younger one refuses too (although I suspect that's mostly wanting to follow his brother).

I worry about this, but not much I can do, they're determined and they're right, they ought to use the gents. So we've got a system, I've explained I can't go in there but I will be outside and if anything happens they yell as loud as they can and I will come in and in an emergency that's OK.

I am so averse to going in the gents that I don't even like to stand right outside, I stand about 5 yards away bc I assume guys don't want me clocking them as they go in and out.

Even with all these arrangements there have been several occasions where one of them has been in there 20 minutes and I've had to open the door and call them to make sure they're OK, and one memorable visit when I got distracted by someone asking directions and one of them sneaked past me, got back to the car and I had to ask a guy to check if there was anyone small in the gents. I really, really don't want to go in there.

I just don't get it when people don't respect the privacy of others. It's absolutely hard wired into me.

I also have a year 3 daughter and she insists on a loo buddy every time bc she just wants to hold hands and chat. I'm so glad of that. grin

LangCleg Wed 28-Aug-19 08:25:01

I'd probably not say anything tbh but I'd be a bit embarrassed if a stranger of the opposite sex walked in when I had my cock out.

Deary me. You're aware of men are afraid women will laugh at them; women are afraid men will kill them, right?

What's the worst that could happen? A woman is unimpressed by your trousersnake? On the other hand, what's the worst that could happen the other way around?

Childrenofthestones Wed 28-Aug-19 08:44:50

IrkThePurist said........
"There is no law prohibiting anyone from using the toilet of the opposite sex. I've seen men take their kids into the women's to change them or help them, and no one minds"

Absolutely not my experience.
I'm male
Twice I've taken my 2 (then under 5) little girls into the ladies toilets, both times because the disabled was occupied and one of them was about to wet her knickers.
On both occasions a woman that was in the toilets, that said nothing to me (even though on both occasions I said "Sorry about this" ) went out and complained to the management, and on both occasions and member of staff turned up immediately threatening to turf me out.
Once was a cinema once was an art center.
Ironically the woman in the cinema that complained had her 7 or 8 yr old boy with her in the ladies.
The logistics of a dad with two daughters means you can't use the gents, as I found out the hard way.

sueanddumplings Wed 28-Aug-19 09:24:52

Secondly, a person who has obtained a Gender Rights Certificate must be treated for all purposes as if he/she was the opposite sex. What does this mean for the single-sex services? It has not been tested in law. On the face of it, it means that anybody with a GRC can go into single-sex services designed for the opposite sex and nobody can stop them. This is why self-ID is such a big deal, because it means that anyone can get a GRC.

Actually it's made very clear in the Equality Act that someone with a GRC can still be excluded.

Join the discussion

Registering is free, quick, and means you can join in the discussion, watch threads, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Get started »