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PE Teachers and self identification

(36 Posts)
Trueheart1 Tue 28-Nov-17 21:59:15

Currently schools can advertise for female or male PE teachers. This is because these teachers have to accompany the children in the changing rooms. If the GRA passes will this still be the case? Or could a man apply for the post of female PE teacher because he self identifies as female? I genuinely do not know if this will be the case. If it is the case, the implications are horrifying.

Thermostatpolice Tue 28-Nov-17 22:51:26

I can't see why not.

As I understand it (would be happy to be corrected if this isn't the case), the teacher would first have to obtain a gender reassignment certificate. But the plan is to remove current gatekeeping and move to self-certification. So a male teacher could, with minimal legal faffing about, simply self-certify themselves as reassigned to female.

In this scenario, how could a school stop a self-certified 'female' but male-bodied teacher applying for female roles? The teacher would be legally female.

DJBaggySmalls Tue 28-Nov-17 23:17:20

Maria Miller had made it clear that there is no situation that would be barred to men who say they are women. They could identify as women and apply to work with abused women and children. Or walk into the womens only area of a place of worship.
She cannot conceive of men that would abuse this trust. If you google 'Wendy Jones walks free from court' you can see she is wrong.

Bucketsandspoons Tue 28-Nov-17 23:26:30

Considering that safeguarding of today is built on the learning from bad experiences of past decades - the bastard who shot the children of Dunblane spent years abusing boys in local groups like scouts, decades of children were systematically abused by people working in children's homes who went after the jobs because of the access to children - this is ridiculously incoherent.

Yes, any teacher applying for a post is going to go through a thorough police check. However when someone transitions, their previous identity - AND any offenses listed on it - are erased as 'deadnaming' is so appalling. How accurate will police checks really be? It's criminally irresponsible to assume that no one will abuse this.

DontBuyANewMumCashmere Wed 29-Nov-17 00:12:41

Quick point, I was a copper and routinely dealt with a TiM. All previous records were linked to both names ie we would access/have a list of precons for that subject and both names (in fact a number of aliases) were linked.

ALittleBitOfButter Wed 29-Nov-17 01:20:33

Oh that's really good to know! That's never been clear before in our discussions here.

Thermostatpolice Wed 29-Nov-17 06:12:40

DontBuy That's genuinely reassuring. Sorry to derail, but I have lots of questions and it's the first time I've seen someone address those concerns here. Do you know if different police forces have difference policies on this? Or is it a national database? Are the police routinely informed whenever someone gets a GRC or changes their name? And do you know whether the GRA is planning to change this? Thanks!

CanIBuffalo Wed 29-Nov-17 06:21:05

And checks are only effective if the person has previously been caught.

DontBuyANewMumCashmere Wed 29-Nov-17 09:40:04

I've just realised I've written an essay on this... sorry! Was going to heavily edit but it might be interesting to someone so will leave it!

TL;DR - it's a national computer database. Each force has their own Intel database so it's covered on local and national level. There is no way across both levels we would miss a link between a former male offender, and a new 'woman' going around offending. We would not create a new record for the 'woman'... his old record would be updated (once arrested/had dealings with us).
We wouldn't be notified if someone changed their gender, only if they were previously known to us and then arrested after 'changing' - we'd then update our local database and their PNC record would be updated to include their new name - in very small circumstances maybe their main name entry would be changed but I don't think this is a policy yet.
Perhaps it will soon be...
If someone had offended as a man and then transitioned but never got into trouble with the police, I don't think we'd ever find out about it.

Do you know if different police forces have difference policies on this? Or is it a national database?

I have worked in two forces and as far as I know it is a national practise - the police national computer (totally national) is a bit unwieldy and you don't have a huge option to change any details once they're inputted, if any at all.
I've been trying to remember whether the PNC entry for this specific TiM was changed so their main name was altered. I seem to recall a big fuss because it was changed.
We don't usually change main PNC details so it was very unusual.

For example, if someone's name is spelled wrong on first arrest, any further dealings with police will be linked to that old name but perhaps an entry will be made to say an alias name is their correct name. But the initial entry itself won't be changed iirc.

So the idea that we would be able to go in and delete Male for Female and change names is improbable when we can't even do it for name errors, driving licence errors etc
The records themselves are usually detailed. Physical descriptions on each arrest are recorded: not just height/weight but hair style, tattoos, marks on body etc
And our 'career criminals' often have numerous aliases (including misspellings but also totally separate invented names)
So this TiM has a list of names I think including their 'deadname' and some other aliases they have used over time.

I should add that most forces have a separate database for their own crimes, investigations, intelligence etc (some forces use the same database and can view each other's data, but by no means all forces do this).
So even if someone hasn't been arrested but has had a complaint made about them, are victims, or witnesses, there should be an entry in their force Intel system.
Furthermore in my most recent force the local database was linked so a new identity would just go onto the person's main page. Their main screen probably would be altered to indicate new gender and names but their information and former dealings with us wouldn't be deleted. You can enter Notes so I'm sure this information would be included in the main screen.

I'm 99% sure we wouldn't just start a new entry for a TiM with whom we had had previous dealings. shock that would be ridiculous and a step too far for most coppers! We are naturally suspicious and cynical (and probably conservative and old fashioned too).

My old force's database was similar.

Are the police routinely informed whenever someone gets a GRC or changes their name? And do you know whether the GRA is planning to change this?

No way, I don't think we're informed of anything like this.
But considering we only really have detailed dealings with offenders we'd only be interested in someone's gender change because of the practicalities - if they were arrested and we suddenly had to provide different detention officers to search the person/officers to watch, if required. (Our guidance is to ask the individual who they would like to have search them.)

BeyondAssignation Wed 29-Nov-17 10:12:31

When someone applies for enhanced disclosure, is it done from this system?

I'm not thinking of a repeat offender that you are aware of in this, more someone who committed an offence, then got their GRC and applied in their new name for a relevant (eg PE teacher) job?

DontBuyANewMumCashmere Wed 29-Nov-17 10:35:59

I don't know. I think they are done using both local and national databases.

But, absolutely, if Janet Smith used to be John Smith with precons for child abuse, I don't know how Janet's precons are actually found out if she hasn't been in police contact since transing.

I haven't had a check done on me since I joined the police so I don't know what is done. Do you have to give ID numbers for cross reference such as passport or Drivers licence?
Going to ask someone who'll know...

grannytomine Wed 29-Nov-17 10:56:43

Enhanced disclosures use various databases, some of them dependent on which boxes are ticked, but the Police checks are done and when I was doing them they would go to more than one force if they had moved around so national database would be used and local. Back in my day it would be the Collator who did the local check but the police have probably got some new snazzy title now. This information would be "intelligence" so not just the convictions that show on the PNC.

When you fill out the forms you should give all previously used names, obviously criminals might not, but you also have to give ID so your original birth certificate or passport or driver's licence or similar government approved documents e.g. adoption certificate or army ID.

I have had applicants where there was a query about their identity and they have had to have their fingerprints taken by local police to prove they aren't someone else, you don't actually get told who they are suspected of being.

I am retired now so might have changed.

Bucketsandspoons Wed 29-Nov-17 11:17:46

Dontbuy Thank you for taking the time to explain, that's really helpful to know. flowers

Childrenofthestones Wed 29-Nov-17 11:26:17

I would be amazed if any m2f transgenders applying would be given the post anyway.
With very most likely multiple binary applications coming in, why would a school set themselves up for a fall with so many parents.
How they will handle gender fluid PE teachers should be an interesting thing.

motmot Wed 29-Nov-17 12:03:19

Where I live childrenofthestones there can be very few applicants for teaching posts. A local school recently had only one applicant for the headteacher post.

It's concerning. Many thanks to dontbuy for the input, so interesting to hear.

Thermostatpolice Wed 29-Nov-17 13:01:53

DontBuyANewMumCashmere Thank you very much for taking the time to type that out. Exactly the info I was interested in. flowers

DJBaggySmalls Wed 29-Nov-17 14:36:10

The police database only applies to offenders.
Men who dont have a criminal record will be able to take jobs that are better done by women.

iseenodust Wed 29-Nov-17 14:43:35

My concern is that GRC should not become an acceptable document for ID purposes, so in the examples above that could be offered instead of passport/driving licence (because if you provide one of those there is no need to show birth certificate). Will there be a right to not disclose previous surnames as that's 'dead-naming'?

OlennasWimple Wed 29-Nov-17 15:58:37

I guess the difficulties in police (and other identity) checks come when a TIM or TIF commit a crime after getting a GRC. Are they obliged to disclose their former name, so that the PNC can include both names? What about when DNA samples are taken that show the individual, say, is biologically male but presenting as female? How is that recorded?

And what happens to the original birth certificate? Does the individual effectively have access to multiple identities with legal documentation to support both?

And on the OP, yes, self-ID means that an advert for a girls PE teacher (acceptable under current legislation, both because of the need to be able to supervise changing and showering facilities, but also the need to be able to touch students more than other teaching subjects) could be answered by a TIM

grannytomine Wed 29-Nov-17 16:07:14

I don't see why the names wouldn't be linked, as Don'tBuy said it has always been linked in the past if people use an alias or a name is wrongly recorded or a name is changed by marriage or other reason. If they commit a crime fingerprints would link them even if they didn't admit the original name.

The list of documents for enhanced DBS is quite specific. I don't suppose any system is 100% although they do seem to be quite thorough. I assume NI numbers don't change so that would be one way to track people.

DontBuyANewMumCashmere Wed 29-Nov-17 20:04:04

So I asked a very clever and knowledgeable colleague: (end question was "Basically could a predatory male easily evade a DBS check by transing?")
She said - Not without lying. When you have an enhanced check done you have to give all names that you have gone by. So the person would have to provide all names, male and female so PNC checks would be done on both.

And granny pointed out that both local and national systems are checked, and sometimes prints are taken to establish ID.

Childrenofthestones I will find that out too - have a PE teacher friend who is now a dep head and she'll know the situation in a few local schools I think.

DJ that's not exactly true - the PNC shows some property records, firearms licenses, vehicle owner details, Driving Licence details (with offences/points etc) and some victim records, and furthermore local systems that Granny said are also checked show victim/witness/stopped by police/basically anytime a car is run through PNC the local force would record it.

Olennas I think a custody question is 'any other former names' and this would be their opportunity to give their 'deadname'. You'd be surprised how many people are genuinely truthful at this stage. Obviously I'm not naïve enough to think that all individuals are entirely truthful too.
I don't actually think the police would be informed that their DNA search for Janet Smith was actually male DNA. Don't think so at all. We just get a match on any other records in the system (known offenders ie this it their real ID or unknown offenders - your prisoner raped someone 4 years ago - that sort of thing.)

iseenodust Thu 30-Nov-17 11:16:05

Thanks for explaining so much.

BelaLugosisShed Thu 30-Nov-17 18:12:54

As I mentioned a few months ago, there is a sensitive applications dept. for DBS checks where someone with a new birth certificate ( when you have that you can destroy your GRC angry ) is meant to identify themselves.
The organisation requesting the check does not ever have to know about the name/gender change, so if the person never contacts the S.A dept. ?
Well, I still havent found out if they could avoid being caught out if they have a criminal record in their male ‘dead name’ , as their birth certificate shows they were born female😡

grannytomine Thu 30-Nov-17 19:36:46

You couldn't use that new birth certificate as your group 1 identification as it has to be the original i.e. one issued within a year of your birth.

OlennasWimple Thu 30-Nov-17 20:32:43

I guess the difficulties in police (and other identity) checks come when a TIM or TIF commit a crime after getting a GRC

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant committed a crime (or suspected of committing a crime) for the first time after getting a GRC. Ie the initial record on the PNC would state that the individual was a woman (say) and unless they gave their former name during questioning / booking in would anything be recorded to show that they were trans? (And if they had a gender neutral birth name, that in itself might not tell the police that the individual was born male (say)).

granny - I don't think that is always the case, surely? Eg my DD is adopted and has a new birth certificate with her adopted name on it, which is eligible for use as a Group 1 ID

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