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Suicide rates young people and young trans adults

(39 Posts)
YippeeKiYayMelonFarmer Tue 28-Nov-17 21:29:55

I've been reading the excellent critique of the 2 studies on the reported trans suicide rates on Transgendertrend https://www.transgendertrend.com/stonewall-school-report-what-does-suicide-rate-mean/

But I've also had a few other thoughts and wondered if others have considered this?
(I want to be sensitive here as suicide is such a tragic and delicate issue, but as this is frequently cited as a reason for transition so I do feel it needs discussing)

So referrals to Tavi were around 2000 last year and around 1000/500 preceding years. 40% of these young people go on to medical pathways with almost 100% then going on to cross sex hormones following puberty blockers. One of the main reasons given for this is to relieve the mental distress which could lead to suicide if ignored.

But only approx 150 young people actually kill themselves each year. So before all this 'transitioning ' began where where all the young Trans suicides? The truth is they were not happening isnt it? Of the say, 1000 children who are now on a medical transition route to sterilisation and life long medication and possibly surgery, only a tiny % might actually have been a suicide risk. But parents are not told this.
Also 90% of young people who do kill themselves are reported to have mental health problems, but apparently trans is not a mental health ISSUE? It makes no sense. Again.

I have also been reading the Samaritans guidance on suicie reporting and I feel that many TRAs groups are endangering young people by misuse of the unreliable stats, against reporting guidelines:
E.g. from Samaritans:

^^Remember that there is a risk of imitational behaviour due to ‘over-identification’.

Vulnerable individuals may identify with a person who has died, or with the circumstances in which a person took their own life.

For example, combining references to life circumstances, say a debt problem or job loss, and descriptions of an easy-to-imitate suicide method in the same report, could put at greater risk people who are vulnerable as a result of financial stress.

And:

Avoid over-simplification

Approximately 90 per cent of people who die by suicide have a diagnosed or undiagnosed mental health problem at the time of death.

Over-simplification of the causes or perceived ‘triggers’ for a suicide can be misleading and is unlikely to reflect accurately the complexity of suicide.

For example, avoid the suggestion that a single incident, such as loss of a job, relationship breakdown or bereavement, was the cause.

It is important not to brush over the complex realities of suicide and its devastating impact on those left behind.

And

Aim for sensitive, nonsensationalising coverage

Don’t label locations as ‘hot spots’ or refer to a possible rise in suicides in a particular place or among a specific group as an ‘epidemic’.

Two or more people taking their own lives who, for example, share a similar background or live in a similar geographic area may be coincidence.

Avoid implying a connection where there may be none.

Be careful not to promote the idea that suicide achieves results.

For example, that, as a result of someone taking their own life, a bully was exposed or made to apologise.

When writing headlines think carefully about content and potential impact.

Consider if the headline over-dramatises the story, details the method or uses sensationalist terms.^^

So although of course studying and reporting studies to professionals of suicide rates in particular groups of young people is important and valid, extreme caution should be used in using these widely and simplictically and linking the behaviour as an identity factor for that group of children.
Yet thinks exactly what is happening.

Once again, I'm feeling. HOW CAN THIS BE HAPPENING???? but It is.

MrGHardy Tue 28-Nov-17 21:55:19

TRA response: it is this kind of propaganda that makes them feel unwanted. And this bullying and feeling of being denied a existence is not a mental illness and it's what driving them to suicide. Now shut up transphobe.

YippeeKiYayMelonFarmer Tue 28-Nov-17 22:23:51

Yeah bit it's not driving them to suicide is it?

And if it was, due to bullying (as GNC no doubt do experience bullying) let's deal with the bullying and not surgically alter people to cosmetically conform.

titchy Tue 28-Nov-17 22:34:11

Agree OP. In fact I'd imagine that now that gender dysphoria CANNOT be treated as a symptom of a MH condition, that teen suicides will tragically increase over the next few years as no one dares treat the underlying condition.

BetsyM00 Tue 28-Nov-17 22:44:45

I read something the other day (though I'll never find it again!) that said discrimination does not lead to higher suicide rates. This was based on the fact that black people in the US have a lower suicide rate than whites.

But, once again, this is just another element of transgender politics where statements of fact have been made on very flimsy 'evidence'. It's clearly not true but there's no proper research and trans people are obviously troubled individuals. And the more suicide is hyped up and mental health issues are not addressed, the more likely it is to come true.

pisacake Tue 28-Nov-17 23:36:36

This is the same thing as the 'Trans Day of Remembrance' (Which is NOT about suicide, it's purely about transgender people killed because they are transgender).

There are no transphobic murders in the UK. But we had large numbers of events commemorating it, attended by police, fire service, etc.

It seems like it's not intended to commemorate anything, but rather to promote an agenda, namely that transgender people need more rights. If you constantly talk about transgender murder then people will believe it. Same with suicide.

I mean we often have events about murders in China, or Syria or whatever, but it's made clear that it's about China, it's not about the UK.

But this:
www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/localnews/dorchester/15687138.Vigil_held_in_Dorchester_to_highlight_violence_against_trans_community/

? What's the relevance?

There is lots more done about commemorating (non-existent in the UK ) transphobic murder and nothing done about (actual) misogynistic murder.

Gingernaut Tue 28-Nov-17 23:47:07

In response to titchy's post, look up PARIS VALETA BREGAZZI.

A transsexual woman mid-surgery.

Who has 40 convictions for violence and who has just received a suspended sentence for pushing an off duty police officer on to electric tracks after 'she' got lairy on a train carriage and he felt forced to intervene.

The judge felt sorry for 'her'.

Someone tell me this 'woman' doesn 't have issues and I'll call them a liar.

Why is someone this unstable being treated with drastic surgery?

ALittleBitOfButter Tue 28-Nov-17 23:50:55

Why aren't the Samaritans calling the trans lobby to account? Is it worth contacting them and asking them to put out a statement?

pisacake Tue 28-Nov-17 23:51:09

I don't think that Paris is in fact mid-surgery, that's just a thing they say in court.

Most transsexuals get boobs/hormones and that's the end of it.

Unless he's actually as we speak on the operating table in the process of having his dick chopped off I don't believe a word of this 'pre-op' stuff.

raisinsarenottheonlyfruit Wed 29-Nov-17 00:00:12

Huge sections of the media don't give a shit about the effect of their articles IMO.

I remember reading an article about how publishing pictures of teens who had committed suicide could lead to copycat suicides. (I think it was to do with the Bridgend copycat suicides, do you remember those?).

The article was illustrated with images of teens who's committed suicides. WTAF?

I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

I imagine maybe the journalist assumed the editors would be savvy enough to not illustrate an article about how pictures of dead teens can lead to more dead teens, with the very pictures they're talking about, but obviously not sad

brasty Wed 29-Nov-17 00:08:29

I agree that the trans suicide narrative is made up. And that the narrative may actually encourage vulnerable young people to self harm or consider suicide. Incredibly irresponsible.

OlennasWimple Wed 29-Nov-17 01:47:30

I agree - and I've said on a few posts that Paris Lees is a particularly awful offender for publishing stuff in breach of the Samaritan media guidelines. I've resolved that the next time something like this is in a decent, mainstream publication I am going to complain about it. Because obviously if Paris cares as much as claimed about the risk of trans suicide, it would only be responsible not to publish the crap that is regularly spewed out.

OlennasWimple Wed 29-Nov-17 01:59:26

A couple of other thoughts (in no particular order):

- it's very possible that there is an under reporting of trans suicides because no-one knew that the individual identified as trans
- this will be more of an issue with self-ID, as individuals will not need to take any steps to be seen as trans. If they do not share with their nearest and dearest that they have a GRC even though they haven't changed a single iota of their appearance etc, how is anyone supposed to know in order to record the suicide as trans-related?
- research such as the WIlliams Institute paper notes a number of other significant factors amongst those who attempt suicide, including homelessness, HIV+ status and disability. I haven't (yet) seen anything blaming TERFs for those issues...
- the same paper notes that " respondents who said they had received transition related health care or wanted to have it someday were
more likely to report having attempted suicide than those who said they did not want it. This pattern was observed across all transition-related services and procedures that were explored in the NTDS" . Ie medical intervention and treatment is NOT the key to minimising the risk of trans suicides. This is a really important point to counter the prevailing TRA narrative that "it's better to have a trans son than a dead daughter"

Traffig Wed 29-Nov-17 02:00:49

Sorry OP.
An unfortunate choice of words stopped me.
I couldn't read on after your sentence:
But only approx 150 young people actually kill themselves each year

One young person's suicide is one too many, never mind ONLY 150.

Datun Wed 29-Nov-17 07:55:11

One young person's suicide is one too many, never mind ONLY 150.

Of course. But that’s not the point being made. The point being made is whether trans children are more at risk than any other minority.

If the 41% attempted suicide risk was translated into deaths. You would find 500 children a year killing themselves. When the Tavistock has only ever reported one.

It’s about the manipulation of figures to promote an agenda.

raisinsarenottheonlyfruit Wed 29-Nov-17 08:07:12

It’s about the manipulation of figures to promote an agenda

May I add...

in a recklessly irresponsible way that is likely to lead to more suicides.

@Traffig please do read on after that sentence and you will understand that - even if the figures were true, which they're not - publicising suicides in this way is deeply irresponsible.

If you publicise that a particular group is a suicide risk it it well documented that it can lead to more of that group killing themselves. If you actually cared about that group why would you perpetuate that myth? You wouldn't.

So, do the people perpetuating that myth actually care about these teens or do they have other "priorities"?

norahnamechange Wed 29-Nov-17 08:23:03

Thank you Op - a constructive analysis.
It is so offensive when anyone attempts to create a hierarchy in terms of suicide and self harm.
Our children are telling us that they are unhappy and stressed and struggling to cope with life for a myriad of reasons - and the levels of mental health disorders are at an all time high. So what do we do? We allow adults with a vested interest in their own narrative about sex and gender, direct access to schools and children to promote their own lifestyle. This includes frightening people with false statistics about suicide which is abusive.

The DfE safeguarding guidelines for schools define emotional abuse as:
It may feature age or developmentally inappropriate expectations being imposed on children. These may include interactions that are beyond a child’s developmental capability...

In the face of such deliberate emotional manipulation, we have to be really clear and assertive and repeatedly challenge.

Thank you for highlighting this.

Datun Wed 29-Nov-17 08:25:44

It’s the biggest marketing scam in history.

Convincing people you are the opposite sex. Or you’re a bigot.

Convincing people that a 19-year-old misogynistic boy can represent the interests of women. Or you are old-fashioned and transphobic.

Convincing people that mixing teenagers is no problem as long as said teenagers say so. Because otherwise it hurts their feelings.

Convincing people that a sexual fetish is equal to gender dysphoria.

Convincing people that young girls are responsible for protecting men from other men, otherwise they need to be re-educated.

Convincing people that lesbians should sleep with men otherwise they are prejudiced.

Convincing people that it’s entirely acceptable for a man who fetishises the biology of females to become a leader of a youth group of girls. Because it is their right.

Convincing people everywhere that women’s and girls’ boundaries are discriminatory against the very people they are there to protect the women and girls from.

Convincing people that the Emperor is fully clothed, despite his blatent nudity.

WhatWouldGenghisDo Wed 29-Nov-17 08:49:12

Our children are telling us that they are unhappy and stressed and struggling to cope with life for a myriad of reasons - and the levels of mental health disorders are at an all time high. So what do we do? We allow adults with a vested interest in their own narrative about sex and gender, direct access to schools and children to promote their own lifestyle.

while at the same time systematically starving mh services for children and young people of funds. CAMHS are on their knees and children all over the country are being refused care. Perhaps it's not so surprising that they are turning to whatever narratives are available to explain their distress to themselves

www.independent.co.uk/voices/young-people-mental-health-philip-hammond-budget-camhs-services-children-a8070431.html

MsBeaujangles Wed 29-Nov-17 08:56:38

Self harm (often including ideation of suicide) is increasing within the child and young adult population as a whole so it can be expected within populations of gender non conforming young people. The biggest increase is actually amongst girls.
Some of the facts and figures have been presented in an article in The Guardian today -
www.theguardian.com/society/2017/nov/27/mental-healthcare-england-children-referred-gp-not-treated?CMP=share_btn_tw

brasty Wed 29-Nov-17 08:58:27

That is interesting because amongst adult men suicide rates have dropped, but actually risen slightly amongst women in their forties.

TammySwansonTwo Wed 29-Nov-17 09:10:28

If you look at the narrative on things like Reddit groups, where impressionable young people are seeking advice they are told explicitly that they need to transition and quickly, they need puberty blockers before their natural hormones damage their bodies, and if they don't do this, suicidal thoughts will follow. Is it really a surprise that so many young kids in this situation feel suicidal?

brasty Wed 29-Nov-17 09:13:27

I know some universities have counsellors who themselves are Trans, I always wonder if this increases the number of young people identifying as Trans. I suspect it does.

norahnamechange Wed 29-Nov-17 09:15:49

brasty reducing the suicide rate amongst men - particularly younger men' has been one of the main 'health of the nation' targets for over a decade, quite rightly as it was shocking. So maybe this focus has had some impact?
WhatWouldGhengisDo - agreed. I noticed that the new proposals to guarantee a 4 week waiting preiod for CAMHs support is going to be delayed by 4 years because of lack of resources.
But the NHS & DfE can find funding for pressure groups like GIRES and Mermaids to promote their own agenda - just not for resources for all children angry

LangCleg Wed 29-Nov-17 09:17:29

The weaponisation and misleading use of suicide statistics by transactivists is one of the things that makes me most cross. Particularly in the case of minors, where we know contagion is a thing. It goes against all Samaritans guidelines and national newspapers should not collude in it. Likewise, social media websites should act on complaints about dangerous misuse of statistics like this.

That said, I agree with everyone who says that ONE suicide is one too many and we gender critical people should be very careful about debunking when we are talking to or about someone we can see is (or might be) a vulnerable young person.

As for some information that we can actually rely on, here is the NHS GIDS:

Similarly, suicide is extremely rare, with one case in the service in the last decade, of a young person in an inpatient ward who was referred with severe psychiatric difficulties.

gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base

So, one suicide of a young person in the entire NHS caseload over ten years.

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