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Can transwomen live as women?

(106 Posts)
chocladoodle Tue 21-Nov-17 15:31:28

I've been reading about the council appointed women's officer and some of the responses got me thinking. Obviously biology means that transwomen can never truly experience the lived experience of women, neither than being conditioned as male throughout their childhood in anyway can compensate the privilege automatically bestowed on them.

In this example it is especially ludicrous as we are talking about a 19yr old, but what about older transwoman. Could they, are they ever going to be accepted as 'woman' without controversy. Is there ever a right time for them to be given 'womens' posts etc.

As women we all have different life experiences and different needs/priorities. Some are lesbian, some heterosexual, some married to men, some to women, some with children, some in full time successful careers, some care givers, some unable to work because of childcare, some disabled etc etc. We all have different takes on life, and I will always hold onto biology to define us as a class, but no one woman can speak for all us. A straight woman, married to an abusive male, struggling with 3 children under 5 has very different needs to a middle age butch lesbian, with no children and a successful career, for example. Neither of these women could truly understand the others way of life.

With that in mind, is appointing a 'woman's post' to a transwoman (not a 19 yr old) that controversial? Until today I would have always said yes, must be a female, I'm not as sure now. I'm hoping some of you who have a better knowledge could help me get my head round this.

Judashascomeintosomemoney Tue 21-Nov-17 15:36:56

Neither of these women could truly understand the others way of life
No, but it’s a pretty good start isn’t it? Otherwise, following the logic, why have a Women’s Officer at all?

tiktok Tue 21-Nov-17 15:40:24

I think the 19-year-old is women's officer of her local Labour party, not the council, yes?

While no woman - trans or not - can 'represent' in the sense of 'sharing every experience' all women, in a patriarchal society like ours, a biological woman is socialised from birth in a different way from a biological man. That 'back story' is the same for every biological woman, from childhood onwards.

It's really not a question of 'understanding other ways of life' as you put it - anyone with a degree of empathy can go some way to doing this no matter what their biology.

But the embodiment of a female experience does matter, I think

I also object to political posts which at least allow women to advance more in politics, and to progress to a political career, going to someone who was born a man. It's harder for women to make their mark in politics, and even harder if their traditional women-only posts are thrown open to applicants who are trans.

Blahblahblahzeeblah Tue 21-Nov-17 15:42:17

We're ok with the phrase "butch lesbian"?

chocladoodle Tue 21-Nov-17 15:43:48

Yes you're right it wasn't a council post, my mistake.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 21-Nov-17 15:45:11

You're right - we do all have different takes on life - the only thing we all share is our biology.

A TIM will never share that biology.

chocladoodle Tue 21-Nov-17 15:45:56

I was deliberately using stereotypes to describe two different scenarios , I apologise if I have offended anyone.

chocladoodle Tue 21-Nov-17 15:49:46

I've always hated that transwomen have taken positions aimed at women, in politics, colleges etc. It seems to be happening more just now as it's on 'trend'. But will there ever be a time that we, as women, would accept that as ok. 'They are just another type of woman'.

Elendon Tue 21-Nov-17 15:52:49

What do you need to get your head around exactly?

Because if you don't know exactly what it is you need to get your head around, then I doubt anyone can help you.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 21-Nov-17 15:55:34

'They are just another type of woman'

But they aren't. They are a type of man.

Elendon Tue 21-Nov-17 15:56:30

Sorry, didn't read your latest post.

Women have been extremely accepting of demands made upon them by males. Throughout centuries and millennia.

Perhaps the fact that we are no longer listening and enabling men is troubling?

tiktok Tue 21-Nov-17 15:57:24

Butch lesbian is fine - many butch lesbians identify as such.

salmonofwisdom Tue 21-Nov-17 16:00:12

I've always hated that transwomen have taken positions aimed at women, in politics, colleges etc. It seems to be happening more just now as it's on 'trend'.

Despite what you think, transwomen are not taking over the world you know!

shutitandtidyupgitface Tue 21-Nov-17 16:02:57

With that in mind, is appointing a 'woman's post' to a transwoman (not a 19 yr old) that controversial?

Yes. Because they aren't a woman at all, and have no chance of appreciating the things that matter to the job. In fact their own agenda actually precludes even an attempt at understanding the needs of the job, since they deny the biological basis of womenhood in the first place.
How can a transwoman (ie a male) fight for womens rights and needs when they deny them in the first place?

counterpoint Tue 21-Nov-17 16:03:14

If there are 'butch lesbians' then there are 'effeminate gay men' and perhaps some of these trans people could identify better as such.

Certainly neither of those terms holds any sway with the biological sex of male or female.

Iris65 Tue 21-Nov-17 16:10:20

a biological woman is socialised from birth in a different way from a biological man. That 'back story' is the same for every biological woman, from childhood onwards.....the embodiment of a female experience does matter

I completely agree. Although one might argue that a transwoman may be more sensitive too and more eager to identify women’s concerns and issues. I remember my exFIL saying to me that no one was a more devout Catholic than a convert!

Iris65 Tue 21-Nov-17 16:12:53

I’m not OK with the phrase ‘butch lesbian’. It may be the case that some lesbians use that term, but this is similar to black people reclaiming and using the n word. It doesn’t mean that other races can use it.

chocladoodle Tue 21-Nov-17 16:14:58

Salmonofwisom. . I don't think transwomen are taking over the world, but they have taken women's positions

ItsAll. I put that quote in inverted commas as it's not my view either. I'm just asking if that's what it'll all come to.

It seems that it all comes down to biology and lived experiences, naturally. Therefore, why do even have the option of obtaining a GNC.

DJBaggySmalls Tue 21-Nov-17 16:17:32

Can Rachel Dolezal represent black people? Because Black people say no, she can't.

counterpoint Tue 21-Nov-17 16:17:56

I don't like labels either. Ergo I'm not interested in a man adorning women's attire and trying to fool me.

SneakAttackDamage Tue 21-Nov-17 16:19:09

What about a 50 year old biological male who went through HRT and full surgery at the age of 20, and has been living as a woman for 30 years.

counterpoint Tue 21-Nov-17 16:20:05

The "black" and "white" labels are non-starters as comparisons here.

They are the equivalent of gender which is social engineering

fartyghost Tue 21-Nov-17 16:22:43

It's not right for them to be appointed to women's posts no, by that I mean posts which the equal opportunities allowed to be advertised as for women only - so women's officers, attendants in women's toilets etc.

It's as inappropriate as it would be if I were to black up my face and then get a job only open to a Black person or sit in a wheelchair then hold a position which was only open to a wheelchair user (if one were to actually exist of course)

chocladoodle Tue 21-Nov-17 16:23:14

I meant to say GRC

If a person has been granted a GRC, is it still not acceptable for them to get posts etc in their reassigned gender.

counterpoint Tue 21-Nov-17 16:24:35

You can live as a woman (social) but you are not a woman unless you are XX.

Maybe one day, genetically modified people will have the ultimate choice but till then, if you have a Y chromosome, stay out of my kitchen! wink

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