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Transwomen are women Logic

(209 Posts)
TheHumanRace Mon 20-Nov-17 22:02:41

If 'transwomen are women' is argued, then would logical reasoning follow that women are transwomen?

Two things can be equal or have the same value without being the same thing thing can't they?

So could trans women be women without women being transwomen, or does 'transwomen are women' make them/us totally interchangble?

I'm hoping for logical reasoning help here ( I need that course linked to by someone for critical reasoning!) as I'm seriously confusing myself.

LineysRum Mon 20-Nov-17 22:06:12

All grey cats are cats.

All cats are grey cats.

Nope.

All grey animals identifying as cats are cats.

Nope also.

Thisisanotherusername Mon 20-Nov-17 22:08:01

as far as I understand 'Transwomen are women' isn't intended as an identity statement. Rather, the claim is that transwomen and ciswomen are both subsumed under the category of 'women'.

AlternativeTentacle Mon 20-Nov-17 22:08:21

Well, the inital premise that of transwomen are women is wrong. Because they are men.

Thisisanotherusername Mon 20-Nov-17 22:12:49

Alternative Yes but the question was about the formal structure of the argument and not whether its premises are true.

RemainOptimistic Mon 20-Nov-17 22:13:47

I'm a gay man in a woman's body. I also like to present myself as female. If men don't want to eat my man-vagina they are penis fetishists and bigoted.

TheHumanRace Mon 20-Nov-17 22:14:05

So it only works if you agree to the category of cis women?
Otherwise there are still women and trans women?

What other category of women would this work with?
Disabled women are women. Yes
But they are women whether you put disabled in or not.

Red haired women are women? same.

But with trans women if you remove the trans and the cis, you are still left with...men and women!

OlennasWimple Mon 20-Nov-17 22:17:31

Yes, OP. You need the cis category to make it work - which of course is one of the problems that many of us have with the terminology (particularly as transwomen are often claimed to be a superior type of woman)

TheHumanRace Mon 20-Nov-17 22:21:17

So they can't/wouldn't claim trans women are cis women.

maybe we're missing a trick by not using cis, but define it to mean biological, then the argument would show the difference between women and TIM which they are desparate to avoid?

Thisisanotherusername Mon 20-Nov-17 22:22:14

Yes pretty much.

Those who say that transwomen are women have to use a definition of woman which either ignores the biological completely (this is where self-identification and feelings come in) or says that simply being an adult human female isn't in itself enough.

(sorry this isn't very clear)

AssignedPerfectAtBirth Mon 20-Nov-17 22:30:36

Aristotle put logic into maths

If A then B Not ness B equal A etc.

It simplifies arguments

Thisisanotherusername Mon 20-Nov-17 22:36:04

Aristotle put logic into maths

formal logic isn't maths!!! wink

AssignedPerfectAtBirth Mon 20-Nov-17 23:35:38

Yes it is. It's pure maths

OlennasWimple Mon 20-Nov-17 23:41:14

"Natal woman" is perhaps a more neutral term than cis. Though it still doesn't get around the fact that "woman" doesn't need a descriptor - you either are a woman or you are not

Viviennemary Mon 20-Nov-17 23:42:32

I don't acknowledge the concept of transwomen or transmen. The idea is just mad. A man without a penis is still a man. A woman without a womb is still a woman. Anything else is just not logical. If people want a third or fourth sex then that's fine with me. But they can't be women if they're men and vice versa.

Ttbb Mon 20-Nov-17 23:50:34

I think that the idea is that a trans woman is a type of woman.

nightshade Mon 20-Nov-17 23:55:38

Sorry to lower the intellectual standard but what is a cis women??

I've only just realised in the last few months that there is obviously a great gaping hole in my pc training record...blush

Thisisanotherusername Tue 21-Nov-17 00:07:18

Yes it is. It's pure maths

No it isn't.

AssignedPerfectAtBirth Tue 21-Nov-17 00:15:57

LOL. well that's binary

AssignedPerfectAtBirth Tue 21-Nov-17 00:17:13

Not going to teach you about Aristotle, but hey

Thisisanotherusername Tue 21-Nov-17 00:17:35

true. (I'll leave now smile)

Thisisanotherusername Tue 21-Nov-17 00:19:29

I know quite a lot about Aristotle. I know more about logic.

Opheliasgoldenwine Tue 21-Nov-17 00:23:21

Alternative so if they have the op to have a vagina, they’re still men?hmm

AssignedPerfectAtBirth Tue 21-Nov-17 00:26:26

I'm sorry Username, but he did do this. Did you not study logic in terms of If A then B? Because that was all him

SlowlyShrinking Tue 21-Nov-17 00:30:02

They are still genetically Male. Their chromosomes are still xy. There’s no way of changing that. However, the appearance of their external genitalia will have been altered to look more like female genitals.
It’s like if I had an operation to make me look more similar to someone from a different ethnicity, nothing would have changed except my appearance. I’d still be the same inside.

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