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The use of #NoDebate to shut down any discussion about trans matters

(21 Posts)
MakeMisogynyAHateCrime Sat 18-Nov-17 14:16:26

More and more on Twitter I see #NoDebate surrounding any mention of trans matters and lately anything to do with feminism.

How have we managed to get to such a level of loss of critical thinking that the so called liberal and educated section of society are using #NoDebate to close down even the most well intentioned of conversations?

How has it come to this? How have we reached a point where women (AFAB -hmm) are shut out of any debate about feminism? What were the steps that happened which caused this to happen?

#NoDebate says to me, my argument is ineffective, lazy and I know I will lose. How can this continue without some incredibly bad things happening to our society (beyond what we already have)?

GuardianLions Sat 18-Nov-17 14:30:18

I think the only thing you can do is abuse the hashtag with things like

"Critical thinking isn't necessary #NoDebate"
"The Earth is flat #NoDebate"

otherwise you can only despair

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sat 18-Nov-17 14:33:25

And it's always used in conjunction with "trans people exist, get over it"

I don't think Ive seen anyone on here deny that trans identified people exist - just that you can't identify out of your sex. Which you can't

Datun Sat 18-Nov-17 14:57:15

#nodebate is a huge mistake in my opinion.

No-one, certainly no-one writing policy or articles, is going to look at that without thinking wtf?

I’ve definitely used it to strengthen my argument against the ideology.

It just comes across as abusive, aggressive and petrified that your argument holds no weight. Which is entirely accurate.

I should imagine the trans marketing department is desperately scrabbling around to try and find another strap line.

Because that one is an own goal.

Unfortunately for them it’s now out there and is invoked everywhere as a demonstration of their idiocy.

Mumsnut Sat 18-Nov-17 15:04:48

It was Hitler's policy, I believe.

whoputthecatout Sat 18-Nov-17 15:12:03

Yet to date it seems to be having some effect. I don't know if anyone saw Question Time this week but the lengths most of the panelists were going to tippy toe around the issue was embarrassing.

Datun Sat 18-Nov-17 15:17:00

That’s true whoputthecatout. But even as recently as this time last year, they wouldn’t have had a programme that questioned any of it.

MakeMisogynyAHateCrime Sat 18-Nov-17 15:48:27

It does seem to have real sway. Most people I know would usually say something like "you can't just close down a debate" but for some reason on this topic anything other than "I agree, wholeheartedly with any notion, identification, theory or idea pushed out by the trans lobby" is treated as bigotry immediately.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sat 18-Nov-17 15:52:30

It's because it is treated as a fact, rather than a belief. The TRAs are framing it that there isn't any argument to be had because transwomen are women.

MakeMisogynyAHateCrime Sat 18-Nov-17 16:02:00

But why are doctors, scientists etc. getting on board with this bollocks? I don't practice medicine any longer but every fibre of my being as a doctor and a rational human being makes me want to scream at this utter horseshit.

Its like being trapped inside an incomprehensible riddle.

Soubriquet Sat 18-Nov-17 16:02:50

I have my own theory #nodebate

Probably won't work but hey hon

Soubriquet Sat 18-Nov-17 16:03:14

That was supposed to be ho not hon hmm

Zoll Sat 18-Nov-17 16:06:33

It's happening because it's very very effective. It's pure 1984, but of course he was writing from life. The combinations of doublethink (and crimestop), noplatforming/removing people from history (making them unpersons), and thought terminating cliche (as in Lifton ) can be seen all over. Even in casual conversation online, note people saying (a LOT) "I stopped reading/listening when X" "i lost all respect for X when Y" etc etc - people are looking for a reason to discard ideas and also people or whole political analyses and movements, not consider them.

Look for mantras, look for doublethink, look for impoverished, cliched speech, look for who is missing from the discourse. It's not just going on in transactivistland, though TRANSWOMEN ARE WOMEN is a pretty amazing example of blackwhite. It's going on everywhere.

We are susceptible to this stuff, we humans. You might even find you've engaged in it yourself on some level (I know after some soul searching I realised I had been.) But we also have moved society against this meme before, and we can again, I think. I hope!

Hastalapasta Sat 18-Nov-17 16:06:52

It is utter bollocks, any debate that is shut down like that is clearly running out of actual reasoned arguments.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sat 18-Nov-17 16:15:05

But why are doctors, scientists etc. getting on board with this bollocks?

Because at the moment speaking out with end your career. I am sure that very few doctors etc believe everything the trans lobby says, but they want to keep their jobs.

GuardianLions Sat 18-Nov-17 16:42:44

Speaking out is one thing - but there are also GPs referring to Mermaids aren't there? Putting children in harms way - suggests many truly are suckered in.

Jenala Sat 18-Nov-17 16:49:34

I think people perhaps don't realise Mermaids is so ideological and warped.

I'm a children's social worker and three years ago I consulted the Mermaids website when I was working with a teenage boy who liked to dress in his mother's clothes and make up. There are precious little resources out there for professionals - I was supposed to have the answers for his mother and I didn't. I seem to remember at the time (as I say this was three years ago) the website seemed like a legitimate, informative organisation.

I think professionals don't know what to do except refer to the 'expert's hence camhs workers particularly referring straight to Mermaids/gender clinics.

Just to clarify his propensity for female clothes wasn't why I was involved.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed Sat 18-Nov-17 20:29:18

That 'transwomen are women' thing is really, really creepy. They're like Scientologists.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets Sat 18-Nov-17 20:36:55

I was just thinking today how incredibly arrogant it is to say that you can turn a man into a woman using a bit of oestrogen or whatever.

I mean how long is it since science even identified hormones or understood how they work? 150 years maybe? 200? And the human body is this amazing incredible delicate machine with billions of working parts.

Even if it were EVER to be scientifically possible to make a man into a woman it certainly isn't now.

It's so hubristic - it's like - 'I had this submarine and I popped on these rotors and now it's a helicopter.'

HouseholdWords Sun 19-Nov-17 22:15:04

I was just thinking today how incredibly arrogant it is to say that you can turn a man into a woman using a bit of oestrogen or whatever.

Indeed. I'm with Germaine Greer, who said that a woman isn't just a man with his penis cut off.

And I've had that "Transwomen are women #NoDebate" stuff thrown at me on Twitter.

What amuses me is way these dullards make assumptions about who one is, & what one thinks, from one comment. Then they respond with #NoDebate. Awfully touchy, and yet it's women who are accused of being emotional and essentialist.

The lack of ability to argue is really obvious.

StickThatInYourPipe Mon 20-Nov-17 18:21:11

I for one love the #nodebate tag line.

People who I have been trying to get through to on this issue without much luck are FINALLY realising that what I have said all along is true and the violation of women’s rights is being allowed to amplify and you’re not allowed to question it.

It has made people realise we are not allowed to ask questions, ime having the opposite effect

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