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Sometimes I despair...

(53 Posts)
theliterarycat Wed 15-Nov-17 00:59:23

... and wonder if women will ever be seen as equals.

When in the same week I hear of perfectly seemingly normal male friends who don’t think their wives should drive across Europe. Or believe that they are not fit to get a driver’s licence. And think it is so selfish to end a marriage when unhappy or admit that it would have been better if wives did not work and stayed at home so they could get important jobs like all the other blokes who were making the dosh because had sah wives and did not have childcare or read to their children after work. Same men who now sadly widowed feel how brain dead can be being home but still believe it would hsve been ok for a woman because of the higher goal.

These are not openly chauvinistig men. And yet... and fucking yet... still we are here. Still at the point where men still take it for granted that they will decide and judge which weight to carry and which position to take in society. And tell us where we should be and what to do for the “easier runing of things”. And call us selfish for deciding to think with our own heads and chose different paths.

Oh fuck off!!

(Apologies for the rant but had to vent before going to bed as it was eating me inside.)

theliterarycat Wed 15-Nov-17 01:04:26

I think that from now I’ll know I am on the right track when a man calls my choices selfish. I am going to visualise a fucking bright yellow brick road in front of me and hop I skip away.

(Going mad with rage, clearly.)


WhatWouldGenghisDo Wed 15-Nov-17 14:05:58

YY cat! What the hell is wrong with a woman doing something for or about herself once in a while ffs

I've been actively attempting selfishness too since having kids finally forced me to confront the horrible lifetime consequences of having been brought up to be a good little girl I will borrow your yellow brick road if I may!

theliterarycat Wed 15-Nov-17 15:52:21

What grin there is plenty if spaces for all of us.

Much more balanced today and I think, “sod y’all”.

Datun Wed 15-Nov-17 19:23:24

I find it really difficult to get my head around what it must be like being a bloke.

All that freedom.

And I know, toxic masculinity and all that. I get it.

But still.

deydododatdodontdeydo Wed 15-Nov-17 19:57:00

These are not openly chauvinistig men.

Erm, yes they are!

WhatWouldGenghisDo Wed 15-Nov-17 20:16:54

all that freedom it's wasted on them imo

They have the freedom to do whatever they want but they don't actually know what they want because they've spent their whole life making women responsible for their emotions

NAMALT. Probably.

theliterarycat Wed 15-Nov-17 23:04:33

Daydodo I know what you are saying and I agree. That is my point. What I meant is they will at all not think as themselves as chauvinistic, just rational males.
It’s big things masked as small things. I know this is how it works and has worked for centuries but... it’s bloody depressing.

theliterarycat Wed 15-Nov-17 23:04:52

What’s NAMALT?

UnbridledRuth Wed 15-Nov-17 23:14:19

I don't think you can make judgements about "men" based on these two muppets though. They sound very unreasonable.

I wouldn't focus on being unreasonable to men in general on this basis as it's illogical and will likely just backfire if you do it at work / in friendship circles etc.

DJBaggySmalls Wed 15-Nov-17 23:19:26

NAMALT is 'not all men are like that'.
Its like replying ''all lives matter'' when people post ''black lives matter'' after another black person has been shot by police.

And of course they are typical. Its why we need equality legislation. It has to be enforced by law and even then many people will try to get round it, minimise or explain away inequalitites.

theliterarycat Wed 15-Nov-17 23:20:27

I am Not unreasonable TO men. I am not judging ALL men individually.

It was a rant because I am fed up of hearing and witnessing this crappy ideas and behaviours even in men who do not in theory embrace misoginy and who would def define themselves as feminist and all that.

It was a rant on the fact that male priviledge is soooo dominant and insidious, as we know, that it’s everywhere.

I am not anti men ffs!

Babycham1979 Wed 15-Nov-17 23:33:35

Firstly,my, these don't sound like normal, enlightened men. They sound like inadequate 1970s throwbacks.

Secondly, you have just as much choice which position to take in society. You may have to sacrifice motherhood as a consequence, but there's no role that's not open to you as a woman in a rich, western democracy.

IF, you choose to be a mother (particularly a SAHM) then yes, you're limiting your professional options to some degree. But then, you're taking advantage of a privilege that men don't have access to.

Icantreachthepretzels Wed 15-Nov-17 23:45:17

I'm confused - why do men not have access to being a stay at home parent?
Being a mother should be no more limiting to career than being a father. But It's perfectly ok if being a parent causes limits - because they have chosen to prioritise family above career. But that is a privilege that is available to every parent and we should see the limitations affecting either or both parents in equal numbers.

But as long as people think being a 'mother' is what limits you - and that this is a privilege that father's do not have access to - then women will never be free.

theliterarycat Wed 15-Nov-17 23:46:49

You have just as much choice
Really is the overstatement of the century

Elendon Thu 16-Nov-17 00:08:49

I agree with you OP. It is despairing to see this in action in the 21st century.

theliterarycat Thu 16-Nov-17 00:19:27

For me it seems much worse when spitted on seemingly ‘normal
Enlightened’ individuals. The one who embrace it are easier to spot and avoid and fight.

The whole system, the whole culture, the whole structure is so invasive that It is going to take a looong time to be eradicated. That is what saddens me.

RebeccaBunch Thu 16-Nov-17 00:22:52

They do sound like chauvinists to me.

ImADadButThatsOKIsntIt Thu 16-Nov-17 00:40:02

I completely agree that the presence or absence of a vagina should not impact on an individuals ability to do anything that does not actually require a vagina.
But for true equality that might mean one having to compromise, I.e doing more hours at work so one's partner is at home more. If one were at home less would one be able to tolerate the domestic priorities of one's partner if they were expected to do more domestic tasks?

FizzyWaterAndElderflower Thu 16-Nov-17 08:00:53

But for true equality that might mean one having to compromise, I.e doing more hours at work so one's partner is at home more. If one were at home less would one be able to tolerate the domestic priorities of one's partner if they were expected to do more domestic tasks?

Oh Christ, the 'higher standards' argument.

If you read these threads on relationships, plenty of women aren't asking for high standards, they're just asking that their partners take some responsibility for cleaning the loo once in a while, or putting clothes away, or picking something up and putting it away when they notice it, or wiping down the bloody side in the kitchen. Not high standards, just basic household care.

WhatWouldGenghisDo Thu 16-Nov-17 09:36:12

I completely agree with OP's point that even apparently enlightened men who theoretically care about equality have a whole host of subtle, unexamined misogynistic assumptions. And in fact women often have matching ones.

Almost everybody seems to me to believe (at least a little bit, at some level) that men's time is more valuable than women's and that 'selfishness' (i.e. prioritising one's own stuff rather than other people's) is a male prerogative.

Datun Thu 16-Nov-17 10:32:31

Almost everybody seems to me to believe (at least a little bit, at some level) that men's time is more valuable than women's and that 'selfishness' (i.e. prioritising one's own stuff rather than other people's) is a male prerogative.

Yes, it’s insidious. And it’s only when you start asking why that people become nonplussed.

So an assertion is made. You ask why? An explanation is given. You ask why?

If you keep asking why, eventually the misogyny is revealed.

theliterarycat Thu 16-Nov-17 12:39:11

The levels of chauvinism are not the same in all men nor in all cultures nor in all eras. Some men may have some chauvinisttic attitudes, like the ones described but not all. And because they most likely improved on the previoua generation they may even think they are ok.

I suppose it is the same way a black person may feel re white priviledge and the assumptions that comes with it. I am sure that I too despite being not racist etc have been influenced by the place I have iccupied in society till now, by how society has treated and valued me. Awareness is inportant but often comes with knowledge. And it is a work in progress.

I started wanted to kill all men and now I am sefending them but that’s because it is not as easy as “those two chauvinistic pigs”. If only.

And yes women are in it too. Afterall we haev been told the same story...

SomeDyke Thu 16-Nov-17 12:54:30

"I am not anti men ffs!"

I am! smile.

Or rather, there are so few that are worth bothering with, that I can't be arsed any more. But then I always admired lesbian separatists when I was younger. I still don't quite understand the writing of Monique Wittig though, but then french intellectuals mostly puzzle me.

Just pointing out that in certain circumstances, deciding you won't be bothered with men is actually a legitimate option. Which is why the prospect of lesbian mums producing sons was such an issue back then.

Icantreachthepretzels Thu 16-Nov-17 12:59:31

But for true equality that might mean one having to compromise, I.e doing more hours at work so one's partner is at home more

Or here's a shocking and radical idea ... you both made that baby so you both take a slight career hit! Both of you working slightly less hours so you can be at home for equal amounts of the time - covering childcare and looking after the house when it is your turn.
Most women don't have less earning potential than their husbands when they get pregnant (even if they are technically earning less because they are younger and so have been in the job less time) but if they have become sah they start to lose that potential. But in most couples two people working slightly less hours should not result in being much poorer than a family with only one earner. (if they are poorer at all).
The removal of stress on a sole breadwinner, the lessened fear of what happens if they lose that job, and the fact that you both get quality time with the children and time to achieve something for yourself, should more than make up for any slight loss in income.

. If one were at home less would one be able to tolerate the domestic priorities of one's partner if they were expected to do more domestic tasks?
I don't understand this bit because you switch from the pretentiously pontificating 'one' to 'they' thus talking about a different person entirely - what you've written is 'if the husband were at home less would the husband be able to tolerate the domestic priorities of the wife if the wife were expected to do more domestic tasks.'
This makes no sense at all. I believe you needed an another up it's own arse 'one'. You mean should a husband have to tolerate his wife's ' domestic priorities ' ( fuck me it's his home too! ) and launder his own underscruds or occasionally wipe down the kitchen counters when he is beneficently providing his little woman with money.

Having a clean and tidy home is not the priority of the person who is providing the child care. It is the responsibility of every adult who lives in that home.

And if you are both taking responsibility for the child you created, and are working equal hours and spending equal amounts of time at home - then that means an equal amount of time to do the dishes and clean the loo. Amazing!

But men are far too invested in the status quo because it benefits them so massively. it is their inalienable right to be chairman of the board, be able to do long business lunches and after work meetings in pubs and then go home to a nice clean house and 2.4 pajamaed children, just bathed and ready for bed. To the extent that when you point out to them in simple words of one syllable that you can both work and both raise the children you just both do each job part time - and yes that does mean you might never be king of the boardroom, but you chose to have kids -that's the sacrifice you made, they still don't have the imagination to wrap their tiny minds around the concept.

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