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Saying feminism is about equality was an error...

(33 Posts)
QuentinSummers Tue 14-Nov-17 16:40:57

Because now we get this claptrap

Feminism is about the RIGHT OF WOMEN TO BE EQUAL TO MEN. It is not about identifying spurious areas where women could possiblt get the better deak and claiming that means feminists have a victim complex.

I'm really fed up of "shock jock" women pandering to the patriarchy with this kind of gubbins.

I'm assuming keeping men onside is important to her role as a sex expert, sex blogger and writer of "provocative" columns about women but really.

People who complain about feminists calling some women "handmaidens", this is what we are referring to.


WhatWouldGenghisDo Tue 14-Nov-17 16:49:11

I'm alright jack

FloraFox Tue 14-Nov-17 17:01:50

I don't want to click the link but I know what you mean. It's just for column inches - it's all product.

Agree though about the equality point. I think "liberation" is better but it doesn't quite cover everything. At the end of the day, for people like this, it doesn't matter what words you use, it's the underlying principles they don't agree with.

QuentinSummers Tue 14-Nov-17 17:08:03

flora c&p for you
You’d struggle to meet a woman who didn’t agree with equal rights today.

However, recent studies would suggest that, despite this, a vast number of women don’t identify as being a feminist.

And I’m one of them.

Modern-day feminism, also known as fourth-wave feminism, has taken a different path to one that I can relate to and currently feels less about equality and more about shouting down all men and picking arguments that belittle the bigger picture.

Whilst I recognize that there are plenty of genuine, very real and very serious cases of sexual harassment, the fact that, according to a recent YouGov poll, 28% of 18 -24-year-olds consider a wink a form of sexual harassment makes my blood run cold.

The true goal of feminism is equality, not classing all men as misogynistic at best, or, should they glance in the wrong direction, sexual predators.

I, like most women, have been winked at, flirted with and wolf-whistled.

Men, who I haven’t fancied, have fancied me and made it known so.

Not offended (Picture: Getty)
I’ve also spent much of my life working with men.

But I’ve never felt that I’ve not been given an opportunity and overlooked because of my gender.

Quite the opposite – on the rare occasion I have felt undermined in the workplace, it is as much by women as it is by men and certainly never because I’m a woman.

And this is part of the reason I feel so alienated from the current feminist movement.

MORE: Wanting to spend most of your time with your partner doesn’t make you a bad feminist

Not all women have had negative experiences. Admit that, however, and many feminists will either insist you’re lying or that you are a traitor to your gender.

No, it’s just never something I’ve experienced and I refuse to shape myself into someone who has simply to suit the narrative.

Likewise, whilst I’ve been wolf-whistled at in the street I’ve never felt victimized or threatened by the male attention, quite the opposite, I welcome the attention.

And that’s not because I’m desperate for it – it’s because I see it as banter, and to categorize it as anything near to sexual harassment not only seems hysterical but also deeply undermines real cases of harassment.

Still not offended (Picture: Getty)
I can’t talk for all women and their personal experience. However, from my experience (Which is the only one I can reference) I think women are equal to men, and that in reality there are very few people who don’t regard us as so.

I’d go as far as to that argued that women have the upper hand a lot more than they give themselves credit for.

Many more women are climbing the career ladder as their partners stay at home, a woman is still far more likely to gain custody of her child after a divorce and if a woman claims harassment, a man is judged as immediately guilty before he’s had that chance to prove himself innocent.

A yes to equality (Picture: Getty)
Feminism should be about equality, not about seeking out a patriarchy that isn’t always present and playing the victim because of your gender.

To label a wink as harassment one minute but to claim empowerment the next makes no sense to me.

And it has nothing to do with ‘accepting the way that things are,’ it’s about gaining some perspective on what is important and not losing sight on how ‘empowered’ we already are as women.

Not all women are victims, and I won’t be a part of a movement that says they are.

So, until feminists stop dividing man and women by categorizing all men as part of the patriarchy, talking about a wink or a wolf-whistle in the same context as sexual harassment and ignoring the equal rights they already have, I, for one, am out.

WhatWouldGenghisDo Tue 14-Nov-17 17:35:50

It's understandable that women don't want to think of themselves as belonging to a servant / prey class

The annoying bit is the bit where they have to blame all the evidence that women are a servant / prey class on other, usually less fortunate, women

DJBaggySmalls Tue 14-Nov-17 17:39:59

How do you know he was winking at you Katie? Poor man probably had conjunctivitis, or a nervous tic grin

AssassinatedBeauty Tue 14-Nov-17 17:56:51

It's a vomit of uncritical unthinking nonsense.

SomeDyke Tue 14-Nov-17 18:04:41

"I, like most women, have been winked at, flirted with and wolf-whistled."
..........and not all of us liked it, or thought that it was something we should have had to tolerate, or try to explain to younger women and girls how to deal with it. Don't mix up consensual, social interactions that can include flirting with all of these non-consensual interactions that despite superficially appearing to be the same actually aren't.

And please stop ignoring the many, many statements from women who don't view these things as okay, as well as the facts that show that women are disadvantaged because of their sex. Just because you personally feel you haven't been, and don't mind wolf whistles, doesn't mean the rest of us should just STFU..................

"whilst I’ve been wolf-whistled at in the street I’ve never felt victimized or threatened by the male attention, quite the opposite, I welcome the attention." As a lesbian, I never welcomed it. Or do my experiences not count? Or is it somehow okay for chaps to assume all women are possibly heterosexual and whistle anyway?

Lots of women and girls say they find this behaviour threatening and objectionable. Why do you think it is okay to ignore their experience just 'cos you find your ego flattered by it, and because the men seem to like doing it? Why do men need to do this, what would they realistically lose by stopping doing it, and what would the rest of us have to gain????

FloraFox Tue 14-Nov-17 18:09:05

Ugh. Short version: "I'll be a cool girl for column inches".

Ttbb Tue 14-Nov-17 18:18:02

It started off so well but then went downhill rapidly.

NoToast Tue 14-Nov-17 18:26:18

'I can’t talk for all women and their personal experience. However, from my experience (Which is the only one I can reference) I think women are equal to men, and that in reality there are very few people who don’t regard us as so.'

It's called research, perhaps find a big girl that can explain it to you...

AssassinatedBeauty Tue 14-Nov-17 18:30:59

It must be fake naivety, surely? She can't be that dim as to think that her individual experience is representative of every woman.

UnbridledRuth Tue 14-Nov-17 21:19:57

I kind of agree with her.

And talking about 'speaking for women', feminists make a lot of noise for <10% of the female population. I do agree with a lot of their issues but I also think it encourages victim mentality....that old man winked at me, SEXUAL ASSAULT!!!

AssassinatedBeauty Tue 14-Nov-17 21:28:51

Which bits do you agree with?

Do you really think anyone would report being winked at as a sexual assault? Or that's what feminists want?

What aspects of feminism are "noise" that you disagree with?

DJBaggySmalls Tue 14-Nov-17 21:34:42

Of course you do, UnbridledRuth, you use 'they' to talk about women which is interesting, and you and repeat the worn out trope that we're talking about winking when we mean sexual assault.
We arent, the author used it as an example. Harvey Weinstein has not been accused of winking at anyone. If you think Louis CK winked at anyone, the 'I' on your computer may be broken. Try replacing it with an ''A.
Both men have admitted misconduct.

UnbridledRuth Tue 14-Nov-17 22:03:07

But when almost 30% of young women consider winking as sexual assault I just can't help but feel we've got a bit too precious.

UnbridledRuth Tue 14-Nov-17 22:05:24

I have nothing against most feminist issues but I find a lot of self proclaimed 'feminists' spiteful and vitriolic people on a personal level. The type who are always looking for a problem. So many threads just turn into man bashing yet the large majority of men are decent human beings.

UnbridledRuth Tue 14-Nov-17 22:09:02

It's like the difference between somebody who votes conservative and somebody who voices this as their foremost defining characteristic (often alt right people etc).

MrsKCastle Tue 14-Nov-17 22:11:13

Not sexual assault, sexual harassment. The survey here made it clear that they were talking about instances when the man was not a friend/romantic partner of the woman.

AssassinatedBeauty Tue 14-Nov-17 22:16:41

Why do keep repeating "sexual assault" in connection winking when you know it's incorrect?

You are wholly wrong about feminist threads becoming "man bashing", that's a totally incorrect assumption about the discussion in the FWR threads.

You seem to be saying that it's ok to hold feminist principles as long as you don't talk about them or tell anyone about them...

UnbridledRuth Tue 14-Nov-17 22:22:05

Not at all.

I'll happily discuss these issues but I refuse to call myself a feminist even if I am by definition. More than 9/10 British women seem to share my stance on this.

And I've read the man-bashing threads with my own eyes. Just a few minutes ago one of the posters in another thread on here stated that trans activism is just middle class men trying to take privilege away from women. Like WTF.

UnbridledRuth Tue 14-Nov-17 22:23:02

And yes I meant "sexual harassment" but my point still stands.

AssassinatedBeauty Tue 14-Nov-17 22:35:33

That's an opinion, which you don't have to share. It's not "man-bashing".

What other sorts of statements have you seen which you feel are "man-bashing"?

Mooncuplanding Tue 14-Nov-17 22:54:21

A wink on it's own is quite an ambiguous gesture unless it is accounted for in terms of the context of the situation. This is obvious to anyone, so the fact 10-20% of people have said it can be used in a situation of harassment would be quite normal. The question itself is stupid and open to interpretation, but then usually these surveys are designed to do that and then journos just quote them without any critical thought

I think every single person, male or female, knows that a wink can signal many things and power, threat and intimidation is certainly on the list.

PricklyBall Tue 14-Nov-17 22:55:19

When I was younger I just wanted to be able to walk down the street, going about my daily business, without some arse-wipe leering at me and cat-calling me. Why is this thought of as such a big ask? Yes, maybe one woman in a hundred for some reason actually likes being wolf-whistled by some bloke hanging off a builder's scaffold with his trousers hanging half way down his arse. The other ninety-nine of us do not. The odds are not in his favour - so WHY DOES HE FUCKING THINK IT'S OKAY TO DO IT?

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