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Does reaching peak trans really mean anti ^all^ trans?

(64 Posts)
Goatgirly Mon 13-Nov-17 21:05:56

A few months ago I reached peak trans, because of the way trans activists behave to women, because children are encouraged to make decisions that no-one of their age is capable of making, because trans women with fully working male genitals should not have access to anywhere that is solely for women, whether that place is a changing room, ladies' loos, women's prison or wherever.

I've been informed that I am a terf, but this is mainly because I am against the extreme stance that some trans women have taken.

On the whole I have no issue with trans people at all, it wasn't even on my radar until fairly recently, when I stumbled apon Twitter and found ridiculous trans ideological posts, that biology is is a social construct and gender and stereotypes rule. I then found out about die cis scum, the cotton ceiling, and other delightful things that prove to me that certain trans women are just mysoginistic men and identifying as a woman hasn't changed that.

But at the same time, I still don't have a problem with most (assuming it's most?) trans people, although having read the Janice Turner article in the times the other day, I feel bad that young lesbians can't be who they are and wear what they want to wear without feeling they would be better off being men.

So, am I just confusing the issue? Is it possible to reach peak trans yet not really have a problem with trans people? Can I hold these views when my deep down opinion is that individuals can wear what they want, call themselves what they like, look how they want, do what they need to be happy, but they will still be the born sex that they are in every cell of their body, even if they have removed certain parts of that body, because that's how biology works?
I guess I'm just confused about how I feel at the whole thing.

BeyondNoone Mon 13-Nov-17 21:08:14

I'd say the majority of people who have peaked have no issue with individuals, but on a sliding scale as to how far they will maintain any illusion.

OlennasWimple Mon 13-Nov-17 21:10:35

Many transmen and transwomen acknowledge that they haven't - and can't ever - change biological sex. Many transmen and women are ashamed of what is being done purportedly in their name.

I'm fully supportive of those people, whilst completely against anyone who is essentially an old fashioned misogynist bigot reinvented for the 21st century

Goatgirly Mon 13-Nov-17 21:22:48

It's the illusion part I'm struggling with.

OlennasWimple, I don't suppose you have any names so I can follow them on Twitter?

busyboysmum Mon 13-Nov-17 21:23:22

I'm the same. Live how you wish I am fully supportive of you. Just don't expect me to join in your delusion. I will be kind though to individuals.

Ttbb Mon 13-Nov-17 21:26:02

I think that even some trans people have reached peak trans at this point.

TheSmallClangerWhistlesAgain Mon 13-Nov-17 21:32:49

I've found much older transsexuals (MTF) to be rather gentle, unassuming people who just want to potter about in the background, doing what they do, without drawing attention to themselves. It's impossible to have any problem with people like that.

woman11017 Mon 13-Nov-17 21:33:30

I think it's a well funded campaign to take down the feminist movement. Like so many things going on at the moment, the ordinary people on either side are usually quite nice, but being used by others with alterior motives.

Look at the strange opposition to the Women's marches, when men, and trans activists were welcomed on them.

That wasn't just about trans politics, it was the usual suspects furious that women had such phenomenal world wide anti trump, and all that he represents, marches.

Goatgirly Mon 13-Nov-17 21:47:38

The trans people I know of (can't claim to know anyone personally) fit that description TheSmallClanger, I can't see anyone having a problem.

Woman, I can see how you think that. Feminism is a very dirty word in many circles, I think most people have lost sight of what it actually means.

BossyBitch Mon 13-Nov-17 21:50:19

It doesn't mean that at all!

I've a trans friend and will (almost - I do have my red lines) go out of my way to be kind to people and respect their wishes. Of course I will use preferred pronouns and, on a personal level, I really wouldn't mind a male-bodied, female-identifying individual joining in on 'woman' stuff in most situations at all.

What I can't stand and won't shut up about is the appropriation of women's identities by people who won't extend those same courtesies to me in return. MTF lecturing women about what it means to be a woman in gender essentialist terms. Being told that having a sexual preference for one sex or another in terms is transphobic (no, it really fucking isn't - that's offensiv

BossyBitch Mon 13-Nov-17 21:54:25

... posted too soon ...

Offensive, even to me, a straight woman, i.e. someone rather unlikely to be in the 'target audience'.

I'm also bothered by transing children and, most of all, by this utterly ridiculous notion that this stupis arse 'gender' thing is supposedly an innate preference.

I mean, come on! I'm a woman manager in tech with two engineering degrees and a preference for dresses over trousers. Does that make me trans-intersex now?

WhoWants2Know Mon 13-Nov-17 21:58:20

I think transvestites and transsexuals have been around for decades without causing any problems.

It’s the “I feel like a woman and therefore I’m a woman and suck my dick if you don’t like it” that causes issues.

So the problem isn’t really “trans people”. The problem is assholes.

Goatgirly Mon 13-Nov-17 21:59:14

I was told that I was gender fluid or non binary, because I wear jeans, t-shirts and boots, and my hair is very short. I also have a fairly gender neutral name, but that was chosen by my parents.
I don't consider myself to be these things though because I don't think they're real, not for me anyway. I am a woman because I have female sex organs and female chromosomes in every cell in my body. Whether I dress appropriately for my gender is, frankly, bullshit.

WhoWants2Know Mon 13-Nov-17 22:01:06

You were told?

Wtf?

SecretHandshake Mon 13-Nov-17 22:04:52

@Goatgirly
Some Twitter people I had good chats with: Elleoove, Jenn_pansexual, HeyThisIsRya, TerrorizerMir,streetvoiceuk are trans
DysphoriaJoe, reckoner80 have detransitioned
trans_nitemare is detransitioning atm
I'm sure there are many more, but I rarely leave my safe bubble there grin

Datun Mon 13-Nov-17 22:11:25

You have to separate the personal from the political. It’s not about individuals.

It’s about an ideology that damages women.

You can have a perfectly acceptable relationship with someone who lives part of the ideology, whilst disagreeing with them on an ideological basis.

The same way that I could be friends with a Christian, without believing in God.

OlennasWimple Mon 13-Nov-17 22:20:00

OP - you can also add Miranda Yardley to Secret's list (I don't know if she's on Twitter much at the moment, but did put out a number of YouTube videos after the Hyde Park attack. And she's a MNer)

QuentinSummers Mon 13-Nov-17 22:26:16

Of course it's possible yo have reached peak trans but still be fine with trans people. I have a problem with lots of aspects of Conservative ideology but still have friends/family that are conservative.

I guess it's a bit like the endless debates about leg shaving . Removal of body hair is unnecessary and something women do because of patriarchal beauty standards. However many women still do it (including me). Do I hate them? No. Do I even think it's my business? No. Would I judge them? No. They are still doing something that's damaging to women as a whole though.
It is a trivial example compared to transgenderism because the impact of me shaving my legs on women as a whole is pretty negligible by comparison, but I think the principle is the same.

That's why calling us "transphobic" for discussing it is ridiculous. It's politics. We are allowed to discuss politics.

Sentimentallentil Mon 13-Nov-17 22:27:52

m.youtube.com/watch?v=4ggX-lvgErc

Have you seen Rya? She’s a fab trabswoman to follow and this is her video about reaching peak trans.

madwoman1ntheatt1c Mon 13-Nov-17 22:31:28

I don't think peak trans means anti trans at all.
I'm one of the people who way back when, would argue that it was all entirely harmless, live and let live, it didn't make any difference to women and was a personal choice. The transwomen of old just wanted to get on with their own lives as they wished, and I was happy to use whatever pronouns they desired. I actually did think that ultimately it may well be the beginnings of breaking down gender stereotypes, although I had reservations about the gender clinic process and legal transitioning process.

Unfortunately, now it appears that the trans movement is being used to reinforce gender stereotypes, and break down sex differences. (Don't even ask me how that has come to pass, because I am as boggled as you are).

I'm ex military. I'm still pissed they wouldn't let me join the marines in 1986. grin I haven't worn a dress or skirt in ten years. I don't wear make up. I'm also a woman, and a mother. And boggled that as such, I am somehow lesser than the angry men with intact penises demanding access to my spaces and being allowed to call themselves women - when I have been denied access to male spaces my whole life as a result of my sex.

I have always treated people suffering from gender dysphoria with respect. It's a mental illness. I have plenty of friends who suffer from mental illness. I'm just very upset that people with a mental illness are now not really interested in treatment, and being treated with respect and being allowed to get on with their chosen lives fairly, they are now demanding that the rest of the world (okay, not really, just the female half of it) changes their reality in order to align with their mental illness.

I'm actually really disturbed about it. It's dystopian. It doesn't make me anti trans. It does make me slightly embarrassed about my earlier naïveté. I mean, male entitlement is something I have always been familiar with. I just didn't foresee it encroaching on actual scientific fact. Apparently there are indeed no limits to the male ego, after all.

busyboysmum Mon 13-Nov-17 22:41:47

Miranda Yardley is TerrorizerMir and is very active on Twitter.

There's a lot of interesting stuff on Twitter at the moment. But it can end up a bit of an echo chamber as a lot of blocking seems to go on so it's hard to have a heated debate.

SecretHandshake Mon 13-Nov-17 22:51:57

@OlennasWimple I would never forget everyone's favourite Miranda!!
He's there, TerrorizerMir, and he is rather busy swearing at trans activists grin grin

Pooley83 Mon 13-Nov-17 23:18:04

I think a lot of people get confused with how people present themselves and to what being transgender is. Being transgender is physically changing one's sexual body parts and physique to their chosen gender. A man who likes wearing skirts for example doesn't make him want to become or look like a woman, he may wear a skirt because of its comfort and wants to promote gender equality, he also shouldn't be labelled derogatory terms such as crossdresser- how can material objects such as a skirt be genderised when really it's just fabric.

Datun Tue 14-Nov-17 08:03:24

Pooley83

Being transgender is physically changing one's sexual body parts and physique to their chosen gender.

Not according to Stonewall. And suggesting you don’t have to make any modifications in order to be trans is transphobic.

he also shouldn't be labelled derogatory terms such as crossdresser-

Again, a transvestite is officially considered trans, according to Stonewall.

If a man who wasn’t a transvestite wanted to wear a skirt, because it’s just material, that would be great.

But denying there is a cohort who wear women’s clothes in order to get aroused is just ignoring whole a section of transwomen.

I’d love to see men, who claim they are men, but like wearing women’s clothes and don’t consider themselves trans.

I don’t really know of any, though. If you do, perhaps you can point me in the right direction?

I imagine that the reinforcing of gender stereotypes which underlines the trans-ideology is going to make it far more difficult for men who are not trans to wear feminine clothing.

( not that I think there are many of them out there, men would consider feminine clothing punching down, not up).

Datun Tue 14-Nov-17 08:04:22

Not according to Stonewall. And suggesting you don’t have to make any modifications in order to be trans is transphobic.

Sorry, that was meant to say suggesting that you DO have to make modifications...

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