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Deliberately naive or what?

(19 Posts)
Saz432 Mon 30-Oct-17 18:18:46

So I fully accept that there are those who genuinely believe that they were born in the wrong body (whether that's a psychological issue or not is another story).

But are trans supporters really so ignorant / naive / laissez-faire that they don't think that some men will claim to identify as women just to benefit from that? Whether it's sports, sexual assault, access to women in general... we know that some men are obsessive in their attempts to abuse women, manipulate women, succeed at the expense of women.

If all that is required is claiming to identify, no treatment or surgery or formal change, does anyone truly believe that there won't be men who will exploit that? I also notice that men who are usually very concerned about preserving their male privilege aren't at all concerned about FTM people - is that because they know their chances of ever passing well enough to benefit from male privilege are virtually non-existent? Because those raised female are unlikely to ever be assertive enough to insist on being treated exactly as biological men are?

I'm just getting increasingly angry with being unable to have a discussion about this without being labelled a bigot. I'm sick of seeing the same people who refuse to debate also being massively bigoted about other groups (personally I think transracialism, transableism etc are equally nonsensical but it's perfectly acceptable to rip those people apart with the same language that so called TERFs use about transgender people). When it gets to males insisting that their penises can be female, I just want to leave the planet.

But I digress - is this naïveté or something else? We know men exploit and manipulate. How is this different?

Datun Mon 30-Oct-17 19:35:45

Oh they know. But they don’t care.

Women don’t matter.

That’s how Jeremy Corbyn can identify the need for women only train carriages on the one hand, whilst supporting a law that means any man can enter them.

He sounds progressive, despite both those viewpoints being in direct conflict with one another.

And no, men are not jumping up and down with the thought of transmen entering their sports, locker rooms or prisons. Because they don’t care. Women are no threat.

Transgenderism does absolutely nothing to change the power dynamic between men and women.

Except make it ten times worse of course.

Elendon Mon 30-Oct-17 20:07:05

And no, men are not jumping up and down with the thought of transmen entering their sports, locker rooms or prisons. Because they don’t care. Women are no threat.

This.

cuirderussie Mon 30-Oct-17 20:27:35

mobile.twitter.com/indiaknight

India has gone full TERF on the subject. The dots are joining up...

SpookghosttiAndMeatboos Mon 30-Oct-17 20:30:43

Goodness... I mean, I hate to sound like a luddite, but those are a lot of general tweets - does she really have nothing better to be doing!

cuirderussie Mon 30-Oct-17 20:34:52

mobile.twitter.com/indiaknight/status/925090950489223168

Sorry, these are the tweets I meant

GetYourHandsOffMyUnicorn Mon 30-Oct-17 20:40:45

does she really have nothing better to be doing!

Like sending death and rape threats to people who disagree with her?

GetYourHandsOffMyUnicorn Mon 30-Oct-17 20:45:07

I've actually just started a thread about this in AIBU. I still don't understand how people can be so bloody naive about this tbh.

Ttbb Mon 30-Oct-17 20:46:52

They probably think that it isn't really enough of a problem, a means to an end and all that. How many men would really do that? Numbers would surely be so small as to warrant insignificance in the eyes of a trans activist who thinks that trans people are the down trodden of society (not women) and that women can put up with a few creeps in order to promote the interests of the trans community.

SpookghosttiAndMeatboos Mon 30-Oct-17 20:53:27

Like sending death and rape threats to people who disagree with her?

Wow. that took an unexpected turn.

no, I was just surprised that anyone spent so much time on twitter really. It was neither here nor there regarding anything else.

I think all these people saying 'who would do that' have forgotten what it was like being a 14 year old. How there's always one 14 year old boy in the year that would pretty much do anything, up to and certainly including saying he's really a woman.

They've forgotten that men have manufactured special shoes, installed hook cameras, or cameras in the ceiling, have lain in lofts and drilled holes into walls, or behind one-way mirrors all just to get a look at women who think they have privacy. There are many men who seemingly have endless time and resource and desire to spy on women.

BMacklin Mon 30-Oct-17 21:02:43

*
They've forgotten that men have manufactured special shoes, installed hook cameras, or cameras in the ceiling, have lain in lofts and drilled holes into walls, or behind one-way mirrors all just to get a look at women who think they have privacy. There are many men who seemingly have endless time and resource and desire to spy on women.*

Yes and they don't even need that! No special equipment required. Me and plenty of other women have been sexual assulted by men simply because of physical strength. It takes very little for that to happen.

BMacklin Mon 30-Oct-17 21:02:59

Bold fail. Sorry.

Elendon Mon 30-Oct-17 21:28:38

I'm so loving the mention of Valerie Solanas in those tweets!

Go Valerie!

MacaroonMama Mon 30-Oct-17 23:11:48

Did she write the SCUM manifesto? I am excited Hadley is feeling so furious too. Looking forward to Saturday's Guardian.

IndominusRex Tue 31-Oct-17 07:15:04

Woohoo. The tide is turning.

HouseholdWords Tue 31-Oct-17 10:25:53

But are trans supporters really so ignorant / naive / laissez-faire that they don't think that some men will claim to identify as women just to benefit from that?

The response I get to that question is that we shouldn't curtail the rights of transgender people because of a few nasties.

And it's a legitimate point.

Except that, given that what is it 95% of violence is carried out by men, that women are pretty constantly harassed by men in public spaces, that offending rates for transwomen are much the same before and after they transition, and that the changes to the GRA will mean that any man can call himself a woman, putting all those things together, it means that women will still be vulnerable to attack.

And that it will still be down to women to judge for themselves, whether or not the person sharing their space is dangerous or not. And what action she should take to avoid being harmed. Like we always have to do, walking home, in pubs & clubs, at school, in our workplace, in our homes ...

Datun Tue 31-Oct-17 10:50:56

The response I get to that question is that we shouldn't curtail the rights of transgender people because of a few nasties.

We shouldn’t curtail the rights of 51% of the population for a vanishingly small handful of men.

Not only curtail the rights of women, but legally alter the very definition of the bloody word.

HouseholdWords Tue 31-Oct-17 10:55:34

Indeed!

HornyTortoise Tue 31-Oct-17 10:56:31

personally I think transracialism, transableism etc are equally nonsensical but it's perfectly acceptable to rip those people apart with the same language that so called TERFs use about transgender people

Of course they are all the same, and the exact same arguments can be used against all. Except for some reason, using the same arguments against 'transgender' is horrible and bigoted and 'terf'y. Its pathetic really..that so many refuse to see and prefer to just go along with it.

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