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#MeToo is trans-exclusionary and for white, cis, privileged women

(98 Posts)
AssignedPerfectAtBirth Thu 26-Oct-17 10:16:00

Now if this article doesn't persuade women of the utter self centredness of the transactivists, nothing will

Ereshkigal Thu 26-Oct-17 10:37:16

If most spaces for survivors of gender-based sexual violence are for cis women, where does that leave the trans or nonbinary people who may or may not identify with femininity or womanhood, but whose bodies cis men have felt entitled to because they ‘looked like a woman’?

Well I don't know, here's a radical idea, if they're female but identify as trans or non binary they're included in female spaces?

Datun Thu 26-Oct-17 10:40:20

And if they’re male, They can set up their own shelters. Just like women have.

1DAD2KIDS Thu 26-Oct-17 10:40:25

Dont really agree. Surely you could argue the same about any group highlighting issuses that affect their group? Would it be self centred say for members of one ethnic group to write about feeling not very well represented or excluded from lets say an anti racial discrimination movement for example. Im not sure its self centred per se to highlight exclusion as if you were valued less than other women because of your birth sex or the gender you identify with. Surely all in our society regardless of gender indentify we should feel encourage by this movement to stand up, join in solidarity and say me too to combat the shocking levels of sexual violence and explotation?

Datun Thu 26-Oct-17 11:13:58


I agree that lesbians, bisexual women and transmen are as open to sexual assault as any other woman, if not more.

And if I thought that’s what they were saying, I would agree. Sadly, I don’t.

Transwomen never, ever target the males who are alleged to have raped them. Or killed them.

You never hear about it.

If I saw any kind of highlighted push from transwomen saying stop male violence against transwomen, I might agree. But you never do.

What you do you see is a profound misogyny. Even directed at women who have been raped. Transwomen’s hate is directed towards women who disagree with them, not men who abuse them.

When you couple that with so very many articles by transwomen saying that objectification of women is empowering, multiple sex with unknown strangers is hot and there is nothing more arousing than fucking someone who is crying, then nope. I don’t buy it.

When did you ever see a campaign, ever, from TIMs that was anything like the #metoo campaign? Or the I Believe You campaign.

Male violence is the problem. And a man identifying as anything else does not alter that. TIMs are no less likely to commit sexual or violent crime than any other man.

And whereas, I have every sympathy with a man who has been sexually assaulted, it’s incredibly disingenuous to take some men out of the male cohort and put them in that of women, to include them as female victims of #metoo.

I understand, of course, that they can be victims. But pretending that they align more with female victims, than they do as male victims, is wrong. It completely ignores the power dynamic that women suffer, and men don’t.

When disagreement with a transwomen no longer brings threats of rape, then I’ll listen.

1DAD2KIDS Thu 26-Oct-17 11:38:35

Datun good answer. Clearly the almost simplistic and reactionary response would be to claim it as Transphobic. But then these days it is so easy to pass pretty much anything of as Hate without investigating deeper into the claim. So I am not going to say that because you have made an argument that may have fondation. So it would be wrong of me to try close down the conversation by shouting the hate card (although that tactic is very in vogue these days). I don't have the answers to reply, you have challenged my perceptions. The best I can do is to have a look into what you have said and ponder the evidence for my self before I chose to agree or disagree further.

Datun Thu 26-Oct-17 11:54:19


Brilliant! See. That’s how you do debate.

And I’d be more than happy to talk further.

It’s really horrible position for a woman to be in, where she is having to make a distinction between certain types of sexual abuse.

And to be honest, I thoroughly resent being forced to constantly refute the trans-ideology.

I’m clinging on by my fingernails to keep the word woman distinct due to biology. To have to relentlessly justify exactly why there is a unequal power dynamic gets tedious and frustrating. (I’m not talking about justifying it to you, I mean generally).

Do transwomen have my sympathy if they are attacked? Yes of course. Are they attacked because they are women? No. (With a small disclaimer for the very few transwomen who actually pass).

When you add in the fact that autogynephiles will thoroughly enjoy the sort of negative attention that women abhor, it becomes even more necessary to keep distinctions between sex and gender identity.

DJBaggySmalls Thu 26-Oct-17 12:07:37

People who have a penis are not a subset of people who have a womb, so the ethnic analogy doesnt work. Thats not hateful or transphobic. Sex is a biological classification, and women are assaulted on their biology, not on how we identify.
We cannot identify out of violence.

A better analogy would be white people complaining they are excluded when people of colour talk about how they have suffered from racism.
Or after a racist shooting when someone posts #BlackLivesMatter by posting #AllLivesMatter.

We know all lives matter, we dont need telling. But we cant fix other peoples problems for them.
Trans activists are not asking for womens support. They are not asking us to support their movement. They are telling us we have to move over.

Datun Thu 26-Oct-17 12:08:01


I take it you’re a man? I’ll see if I can explain it to you differently.

Doesn’t work on all levels, because of the inherent power dynamic. But it might help you see what I mean.

Take a hypothetical transman (born female transitions to male). He has become very famous. Has blogs, vlogs and mainstream media articles.

He says he represents men. He says come on men, as we all know we like nothing more than groping women at work. What’s better than commenting on a woman’s cleavage and watching her squirm? Amirite?Despite what they say, we all know they love it.

What if a whole bunch of other transmen agreed with him? And they were incredibly powerful?

And you left spluttering with frustration and outrage because not only were they not describing you, they’re not describing any kind of men that you would like to see? Certainly none that claim to represent men in general.

Then, the #metoo campaign came up. And you have these exact same transmen saying how disgusting it was that certain men harass women and it’s awful that all men are being tarred with the same brush. And if you question it, you are told, in no uncertain terms, that these transmen are exactly same as you and if you don’t give their opinions the respect and validation they deserve, you’ll get punched. Because that would be a hate crime.

53rdWay Thu 26-Oct-17 13:00:01

Oh, I have a lot of women FB friends who were all over this from the start. One changed “women” in the #metoo thing to “femme and femme-identifying”. Nice one - if we just make ourselves small and quiet and absent enough, I’m sure patriarchy will start being nice to us! hmm

QuentinSummers Thu 26-Oct-17 20:28:32

trans and nonbinary folks are often those most impacted by rape culture.
No don't buy it.

I agree that lesbians, bisexual women and transmen are as open to sexual assault as any other woman, if not more
Don't buy this either, sorry Datun
Most rape and sexual assault is done by someone known to the victim, so heterosexual females are at the highest risk because of their partners sad

QuentinSummers Thu 26-Oct-17 20:28:53

The first quote is from the article

Datun Thu 26-Oct-17 23:02:16

*Don't buy this either, sorry Datun
Most rape and sexual assault is done by someone known to the victim, so heterosexual females are at the highest risk because of their partners sad*

Yes, I take your point. But I don’t have any data and I didn’t think it was worth splitting hairs. I was making a distinction between men who think they’re women and women.

Also, from what I understand bisexual women do come in for a lot of stick. But again, I don’t have any data.

I’d be interested to see if the data has changed for lesbians, though. Given how much more hassle they get from male lesbians now.

QuentinSummers Thu 26-Oct-17 23:53:38

I was just really annoyed at the quote in the article. Get really frustrated that us boring old cishets just have to suck up what happens to us because trans "folks" have it worse. When really, trans men and non binary women aren't raped more because of their gender identity.

Let's deal with rape full stop.

MrsTerryPratchett Fri 27-Oct-17 00:00:44

Or after a racist shooting when someone posts #BlackLivesMatter by posting #AllLivesMatter.

If men and transwomen actually cared about sexual assault and male violence they wouldn’t try to dilute and derail a very successful campaign highlighting the extent of it. Some male victims of sexual violence have been very eloquent about this being the time women get to shout about it, rather than derailing it.

Queenofthedrivensnow Fri 27-Oct-17 00:10:51

This thread has reminded me to join in with #metoo

PlumpSquirrel Fri 27-Oct-17 04:57:40


“Get really frustrated that us boring old cishets just have to suck up what happens to us because trans "folks" have it worse.”

Interestingly, that’s a common argument I hear from men’s rights advocates in regard to feminism. Although, when talking about rape it’s a bit trickier as there seems to be some possibility that men may be the main victims when we include prison stats (I believe some of the stats were projections so a little ambiguous).

GuardianLions Fri 27-Oct-17 08:17:55

plumpsquirrel the heterosexual female population (females living with a man) vastly outnumbers the population of incarcerated males.
I know that MRAs try to throw in the made-up notion of 'more rapes happen in prison than outside' to undermine women's genuine concerns about male violence against women and girls - but it is clearly crap when you do the maths.

PlumpSquirrel Fri 27-Oct-17 08:29:44

I thought it was based on the revised estimates given by the government, but I’ll admit I’m only repeating what I’ve read and haven’t researched it in any depth.

PlumpSquirrel Fri 27-Oct-17 08:31:46

Although if you’re suggesting that the average guy is as likely to rape a women as a prisoner is I’d have to disagree. Most couples have consensual sex whilst prisoners are usually sexually frustrated and deprived of female contact, hence the rape issue.

QuentinSummers Fri 27-Oct-17 08:43:48

Stop derailing plump

GuardianLions Fri 27-Oct-17 09:31:10

plumpsquirrel you seem to think that
1) Sexual frustration leads men to rape (and by 'female contact' do you mean 'sexually access to women's bodies?) - which begs the question what happens to women who are not up for as much, or the kind of, sex that would sate her male partner? The old joke of "lie back and think of England"....
2) there is no consensual or reciprocal arrangements between men in prison and it is all rape. This is far from true if you think about 'tossing the salad', etc. And I heard from someone who had been in for armed robbery that there are some blokes who start this arrangement very early on, often with short sentences - we'll he actually said it was mostly these men that engage in homosexual acts. The inference was that most men inside prison are just like men outside prison and they just masturbate privately.

MrsTerryPratchett Fri 27-Oct-17 14:51:29

‘Gay for the stay’ is relatively common. And while I agree that prison sexual assault is utterly dreadful (and i work and have worked with male offenders for decades) it will get much much worse if male offenders are allowed into female prisons, also an aim of the people punching the ‘sexual assault is worse for trans people’ line.

I think if assaults on sex workers were counted properly, assaults in women would very clearly outnumber assaults on men including in prison. No one gives a shit about sex workers though.

Bucketsandspoons Fri 27-Oct-17 18:10:18

Sigh. I read articles like that one in the link, which reminds me of the few that came out about the whole pussy grabbing/women's march thing on the same theme, and my patience ebbs further and further.

Is it me or is there a whiny kind of tone to all this under all the sanctimonious reproach?

Missymoo100 Fri 27-Oct-17 23:28:35

I think the whole HW revelation is going to reveal a lot more seedy stuff going on in Hollywood. Last year Elijah wood stated there is a paedophile epidemic-#me too might hopefully illuminate the whole cesspit of Hollywood, so i don't mind who uses the hashtag, let's not give the abusers anywhere to hide.

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