Talk

Advanced search

Please can we have a sticky on the trans/feminism issue?

(23 Posts)
Ragusa Fri 20-Oct-17 21:36:48

I like to think I'm a reasonably intelligent reader and also a feminist.

The trans/ feminist issue is something I really need to understand I don't know where to start.

I am falling on all your collective mercies and asking for some pointers to good, concise aources.

I spend all day researching pros and cons of various intellectual, social and political ishoos and am worn out by the evening. I need someone to do the legwork for me
on this one 😂

Links are fine, happy ro read, just don't have a toe hold to get started.

Thanks so much to anyone who answers.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans Fri 20-Oct-17 21:39:46

Hi Ragusa

This is a pretty good summary of some basic issues & why women are worried.

www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/politicians-are-jumping-on-trans-bandwagon-without-thinking-a3663726.html?amp

FlaviaAlbia Fri 20-Oct-17 21:43:22

Here's another good one from a MP that actually gets it

www.david-davies.org.uk/news/transgender-rights-versus-womens-privacy

Datun Fri 20-Oct-17 22:01:21

Which bit are you struggling with?Eg the science, the clash of rights, the fetishist element of 60% of trans, trying to be inclusive, gender stereotypes versus gender as an innate feeling, children who are trans, the science behind drugs?

It’s easier if you can pinpoint the bit that you are having trouble with.

Rumandraisin1 Fri 20-Oct-17 22:16:53

Someone shared this on another thread. I think it covers most of the basics:

sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

Ragusa Fri 20-Oct-17 22:20:45

Ooh thanks all. Empress and Flavia I will start with those.

Datun, here is my dilemma: I am not into biological determinism and I do believe some people need to change gender or might prefer to be defined in non-binary terms. That is fine by me and a social fact. But I am worried what this means for women's rights and the recognition of (and fight against) women's disadvantage.Ive heard people say that transactivists are undermining feminism but I dont fully understand the logic. Especially given trans, LGBTIQ* folka are minorities like women. Isn't this whole transcritical thing just taking aim at other disenfranchised groups/promoting infighting, and diverting energy away from tackling the really big issues in equality?

That is my internal narrative 😂

SuburbanRhonda Fri 20-Oct-17 22:22:41

I don’t think women are a minority, are they?

Ereshkigal Fri 20-Oct-17 22:37:28

Ive heard people say that transactivists are undermining feminism but I dont fully understand the logic

Which bit of the logic? You say you are concerned for women's rights. But you think it's bad to be gender critical? Not following you there.

Ereshkigal Fri 20-Oct-17 22:38:26

If you can elaborate more on your position we'll be able to give more specific links.

Ragusa Fri 20-Oct-17 22:53:55

Suburban you are quite right, numerically women are not a minority group. I meant 'less powerful' but my brain is tired and it came out wrong.

Ereshkigal, what does it mean to be gender critical? I am freah to this and don't know all the relevant lingo.

Rumandraisin I read.that article. It is a really interesting starter piece: thank you. It's got me thinking, I buy some of what it says (particularly the stuff about statistics, discrimination, and declaration of biological sex) but large parts of it seemed full of gaping logical and ethical holes. Did the job of getting.me thinking, though, so it did :D thanks again all.

Ragusa Fri 20-Oct-17 22:54:21

Fresh. Not freah..

Ereshkigal Fri 20-Oct-17 23:01:37

You said "transcritical". I wouldn't refer to myself as that and don't know anyone else who would do. Radical feminists or gender critical people are critical of gender as a whole and see it as oppressive. It's not just transgender politics that's the issue but the unquestioning attitude to gender roles which are based on harmful stereotypes.

Datun Fri 20-Oct-17 23:03:02

Isn't this whole transcritical thing just taking aim at other disenfranchised groups/promoting infighting, and diverting energy away from tackling the really big issues in equality?

Yes! It absolutely does.

But what big issues inequality are you talking about? If you are referring to women’s inequality, I’m afraid you’re going to have to be a little more specific.

Start with basics. How do you define women?

Ereshkigal Fri 20-Oct-17 23:04:02

I'd be interested to know what the "logical and ethical holes" are. Genuinely so.

Ragusa Fri 20-Oct-17 23:17:43

Cheers folks. I'll come back to this in the morning, my brain has packed up for now. Appreciate your thoughts.

53rdWay Sat 21-Oct-17 08:15:07

This is a decent one: thefifthcolumnnews.com/2017/08/are-there-good-reasons-to-oppose-transgenderism/

AnotherSpartacus Sat 21-Oct-17 10:18:36

Ragusa I thought it might be helpful to look at the first past of one of your posts a bit:

"I am not into biological determinism and I do believe some people need to change gender or might prefer to be defined in non-binary terms. That is fine by me and a social fact."

By 'biological determinism' do you mean the idea that being born male or female shapes characteristics like personality and interests, eg. women are nurturing, passive, like the colour pink and wearing make-up? If so, gender-critical feminists would absolutely agree with you that it's wrong. Where we differ from the trans ideology, however, is in saying that it's wrong for everyone. If you're a man who likes stereotypically feminine things, that doesn't make you a woman. People shouldn't be put into little pink and blue boxes. Practically everyone, according to the trans standpoint, is non-binary, because nobody has a completely stereotypically masculine or feminine personality.

I, and many others on this forum, don't believe in 'gender identity' as an innate, objective thing. Gender is a social construct, so it can't be. People should be able to present themselves however they want, and have whatever interests they like, without saying that it makes them the opposite sex if they do so.

The transactivists conflate sex and gender, and say that even if a man just declares that he feels like a woman inside, and does nothing else then he is a woman. He has always been a woman. His penis is a female penis. He can use women's changing rooms, women's shelters, women's prisons. He can win women's scholarships and compete on women's sports teams. His feeling is more important than the material reality of his sexed body, or his lived experience of decades of male socialisation.

This is what we object to - not the idea that a minority of people with persistent gender dysphoria might feel more comfortable and live happier lives with hormones and surgery. The erasure of women as a category. If you can't define 'woman' other than the circular 'anyone who says they feel like a woman' how can you address sexism?

SuburbanRhonda Sat 21-Oct-17 10:20:26

I wonder if the OP will come back.

MacaroonMama Sat 21-Oct-17 10:30:00

Rumandraisin that Sages factsheet is SO good. Really clear, unemotional, factual etc. This morning I have sent it to my mom, my mother-in-law, the four women in my book group, my sisters-in-law, my best friend - and have offered to write their letters "from them" to their MPs.

I am on a mission. This morning my first thought when I woke up was 'Penis? Male prison. Vagina? Female prison. There. Sorted!' Then I properly woke up and remembered the madness...

FlaviaAlbia Sat 21-Oct-17 10:38:01

I suppose it's a lot to swallow when you're initially moving away from the "but trans is a minority = minority good = not giving them what they want is mean" viewpoint.

My Dbro is a pain in the arse about this, he just can't or doesn't want to see that a 50yr old man who has now decided he's a trans woman has benefited all his life from male privilege (and usually someone else doing the shitwork of raising a family) and isn't the same as woman.

Ragusa Sat 21-Oct-17 14:48:53

I'm still here and still reading. Thanks to all who have posted. Busy day here today but I will sit down with it all tonight. Thanks again.

SuburbanRhonda Sat 21-Oct-17 15:04:44

Perhaps, if you ask questions and people take the time to reply, you should post when you do have time to contribute to the thread. Otherwise it could seem that you’re happy for everyone else to do the legwork.

Pissedoffhadenough Sat 21-Oct-17 17:36:37

It's not true that all LGBTQI people support each other. Look up the "cotton ceiling". A lot of lesbians are now starting to say that trans women with penises are complaining that lesbians won't sleep with them. But lesbians are attracted to women and aren't generally interested in penises. We're starting to see a trans women displaying male entitlement by insisting that everyone should sleep with them because they say so.

Here is a subreddit which is very helpful: www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/

Here is a list of times when men have sexually assaulted women in public toilets: randomstabbing.tumblr.com/post/144989720467/the-tip-of-the-iceberg-please-add-to-this-list

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now