Straight black men are the white people of black people.(8 Posts)
I am posting this here because I have been asked before about black men not being challenged for their gender privilege. The three articles posted are all linked and enhances each other in understanding. It's all about race but and gender (between black men and women). People should be able to understand where it crosses into General male privilege which I hope people on here will be able to differentiate and understand the two and together at the same time. We could just say it's just sexism, but they are not talking about whiteness, more in line with black women and how black men behave even though racism does exist. They all look at the powers black men have. Just to clarify, it does not say racism is irrelevant even if black men have power.
There is such so much to just post snippets of it.
that sparked the whole debate about this but should be read first, I think.
A woman's response to the article after reading the comments section.
This article articulated exactly how I felt months ago but did it to a whole different level. This had been discussed before (not on Mn) and I have dropped little comments on this here and there but never went into it.
Very interesting articles - thanks for posting them quencher.
I feel like it's not my place to comment, more to read and learn, but one bit that did resonate very much for me was the notion of using the language of empathy and emotional growth as yet another weapon in the armoury to gaslight and manipulate women. It chimed with an incident in my own life where I had to get in touch with a relative who'd been convicted of sexual offences against children (got in touch with him on the advice of police, in order to help with the safeguarding of my own child) and one of the pieces of advice the police officer gave was to be very wary of "therapy speak" because in his experience it simply became another tool to manipulate and groom the people the offender came into contact with.
Yes great articles quencher. The first one especially. I hope white men read that one too because it is so great at spelling out sexism.
Thank you both.
@PricklyBall that is really interesting about what you were told by the police.
I am struggling to just pick one point out of the whole lot.
@QuentinSummers I think it would be great. I thought for everyday sexism it was relevant too. What makes me wonder is whether it would need a shared experience where they are being othered. black men or men of colour can do to others what is being done to them and not have the ability to stop and think because they are part of a different system with different shared goals and aims. It would have to be pointed out and I can't think of how you would do that with white men, unless. They are gay or has some sort of structural issue like poverty but in ways that the abuse can be evident in some form to the people it affects.
If anyone wants answers from any of the bits. Ask away.
See I was wondering whether the fact the article is superficially not about white men might make it easier to read objectively rather than jumping to a NAMALT position.
Also something about this para just doesn't quite ring true for me
"The only problem is, like white people, cishet black men view themselves as “neutral”, with every other gender or sexuality being a deviant."
Maybe everyone views themselves as "neutral"? Or maybe this is a common feeling for men? I don't feel "neutral but then I am a feminist so I probably wouldn't.
I don't like the cishet aspect. Of course. But I know misogyny exists in the LGBT community, black and white (Owen Jones, and Janet Mock spring to mind).
I don't think I'm explaining myself very well. But I feel like the author is tantalisingly close to intersectionality by intimating that black men are simultaneously oppressed and oppressor, yet missing the mark with the "cishet" comment.
The only problem is, like white people, cishet black men view themselves as “neutral”, with every other gender or sexuality being a deviant."
Maybe everyone views themselves as "neutral"? Or maybe this is a common feeling for men? I don't feel "neutral but then I am a feminist so I probably wouldn't. The writer is gay and that is why they constantly tried to separate themselves from black men he referred to as neutral. (The best word for him to have used probably, should have been "the norm" because everyone else is subset, not normal and or those that are within the status quo when it come to patriarchy and what it entails.)
The argument is not focused between the races but gender difference between black men and women plus gay black men (not general gay man but a subset of gay men i.e. Black men)
you have to look at the argument between black men (falling under the male group as whole) and then black women ( under women) and at the same time not think of all women,because that muddles it.
White women and men in this argument are already the default people,because of race structure/ system. For black men, because of misogyny/sexism being part of their upbringing. They also, see themselves as the default group within its community. Like the leader/controller of the sub group within the system of patriarchy and they too exert their dominance. ( and when it comes to sexism it does also affect all women because of how they have been socialised. But how they. Jew white women and black women is different based on race. The second pint is what is ring looked at because the first point falls under all men).
I also, think that the "neutral" can be explained in way that they don't think about how their actions affect others because it's normal to them. The lack of awareness for the other gender and for white people it would race. Sexuality among each sex to weed out what would be deemed deviant. (I have used sex here on purpose.)
I know that you mentioned that you don't feel neutral. That is true as long as race does not exist and only gender is the means for which things are measured. For black women, you would be neutral to us because you are the default for what a woman is because society says so. As feminist you know that men are the default because society says so.
The male dominance of space and power would make women in general not to be the norm. For something to be the norm, it would have to be accepted as what it is, (for society it would have to be of equal value) we are not as women, nor are people of colour.
But I feel like the author is tantalisingly close to intersectionality by intimating that black men are simultaneously oppressed and oppressor, yet missing the mark with the "cishet" comment. Yes that is what they are saying. They are being oppressed yet fail to see they they are doing the same thing in other ways too. They fail to see the benefit of being male. I think the author is like me. If I was to write something like that about gender, I would have to include black women too. I think this is where they tried to include themselves in the argument about black men oppressing gay men too. The word drove me me crazy reading it but I could see what they were trying to do.
For black women, you would be neutral to us because you are the default for what a woman is because society says so.
Yes. I guess if I was thinking about a "default woman" I would probably see myself as that as a white, married, thin mother. But I don't see myself as "neutral" when compared to men. I don't know, I just found the whole para challenging to me.
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