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Gender reassignment surgery... Would you then be happy with them in female spaces?

(216 Posts)
TurquoiseChevrotain Thu 21-Sep-17 01:13:51

I don't have an issue with transgender individuals, etc.

However, I know there are feminism issues. Jus curious if a biological male has his penis removed, do you still have an issue?

annandale Thu 21-Sep-17 01:21:26

It depends on the purpose of the space. But essentially, I would like an honest conversation about why the space is for women. If that purpose is incompatible with people who are not women being in it, then they shouldn't be there. To me, their surgical status is not the point.

TurquoiseChevrotain Thu 21-Sep-17 01:28:04

I suppose I'm talking about same sex dorm rooms, etc.

ImSorryAuntLydia Thu 21-Sep-17 01:33:05

It's tricky, and definitely depends on the space you are talking about, as annandale says. A man who has had his penis removed will still have physical advantages over women in sport, for example. And will have had other advantages that would make him taking a STEM scholarship reserved for women inappropriate. And a man in prison for a violent and/or sexual offence is still more of a risk in a women's prison.

I would have less problem with a transwoman who is post-surgery and is in prison for a non-violent offence moving to a women's prison, but knowing exactly where to draw the line would be difficult.

And in places such as toilets, it would be impossible to know who has had surgery and who has not. I want women to continue to have the right to confront obviously male bodied people in places where male people should not be.

DJBaggySmalls Thu 21-Sep-17 02:23:36

I'm going to say no rather than have to work out a complicated case by case basis.
Men grow up with male socialization. Rape Crisis and studies have found that having a man in the group changes the dynamic of the group. I dont think they should be in womens wards in hospitals or psychatric units, or domestic violence shelters.
Mosques or temples should have the right to keep their women only spaces.
I think women need the right to ask for female staff in a medical or care setting, otherwise women of some religions may not be able to access healthcare.

Its not going to be possible for anyone to reliably tell who is a transsexual and who is a trans identifying male. No one should be put in the position of challenging anyone and I'm sure it wouldn't be comfortable for them either.
So either make the men's room gender neutral and keep the women's room, or make a third gender neutral space.

What we choose to do at home with our friends and family is different; those are people we have a relationship with.

SerfTerf Thu 21-Sep-17 03:22:02

For me, changing rooms and loos become a non-issue for post-op trans people.

Sports competitions and prisons are more complicated and probably still require a third space.

okMaybeIAmATERF Thu 21-Sep-17 03:22:04

For me, it depends on the situation.
1) Are we in a situation where this individual has no choice but to be classified as either male or female? Toilets, prisons, etc? Then OK, a post-surgery trans woman may well be better placed with the women than with the men.
2) Or are we in a situation where this individual could choose to stay out altogether? Sports, jobs that involve dealing with women who might prefer not to have a man around at that moment? Then no, a trans woman should do something else, and not be there.

Italiangreyhound Thu 21-Sep-17 04:26:41

If someone has had the op and is a genuine transexual I am happy to share changing rooms etc.

However, women's sports and prisons should be for natal women.

The people transitioning to get into prisons are predominantly violent males and a woman's prison is the last place they should be.

Basically, for me most places in society are unisex - most work places, political spaces, most/many religious spaces, most educational spaces, shops, pubs, restaurants, art spaces, theaters, outdoor spaces like parks, holiday resorts, etc etc. It's only certain set spaces that are sex segregated for a reason.

For me, a non-violent, post op transexual woman would be welcome in the spaces I would go but is it my right to answer that on behalf of other women and girls?

SpaghettiAndMeatballs Thu 21-Sep-17 06:29:37

As others here, it entirely depends on the reason for the segregation - which is why it would be a privilege (as it is now) not a right. i.e. the women can invite them in, but they don't have any right to demand entry.

If I had to come down on one side or the other, if no grey was allowed, then due to the complexity, it would have to be the no side.

BigDeskBob Thu 21-Sep-17 07:08:28

How would anyone know that the man was trans, let alone had surgery?

Gileswithachainsaw Thu 21-Sep-17 07:15:25

This is where it gets tricky for me.

Surgery is an incredibly painful and risky way witg many a complication possible, just to get a glimpse of my wobbly body. So I'd be ok on a personal.level

However I also have 2 dds who need to be able to change without me being there and have a right to feel safe and comfortable.

And neither of us have the right to go round asking people about private medical details so we would have no real way of knowing their surgical status.

Not sure how all these things can come together in a mutually acceptable way tbh...

tocas Thu 21-Sep-17 07:21:14

Surprised by some of the replies. I feel that if a trans woman is post op and has had all the associated treatment (therapy and hormones) then they should be treated as a woman. Transitioning from male to female is no easy task, it's not like people can just decide to do it and it's done within the week and without due consideration to their reasons for doing so.

Elanetical Thu 21-Sep-17 07:23:49

Unfortunately for the trans women who wish no one harm, I say no.

Because the only way to actually make female spaces actually limited to female only entry is by peer pressure and subtle cues about who is female and who is male.

If you let in someone who is male, albeit someone who has had body modifications of some kind, you let in someone male and all the subtle cues stop working.

How do you know who has had surgery and who is just lying to gain access? How do you know who is innocently and quietly going about their business and who wishes harm on women? You don't and you can't.

The recent events at Speakers Corner have shown that violence against women is encouraged in certain parts of the trans community. I know their actions are certainly not universally applauded but these are not isolated voices, and access to female spaces is very much a topic of trans activism.

Gileswithachainsaw Thu 21-Sep-17 07:24:49

Also what I don't understand Is, when you ride a horse you know you might fall off, when you swim in the see you accept the chance of sharks, you climb to the top of mount Everest and presumably you weighed up the risks before you started?

Life is made up of decisions we take where we have to agree to risks and possibilities we may not like but feel the benefits outweigh those.

You sign consent firms.for surgery having had all the complications etc explained and you sign and accept those.

Using female spaces must surely be something you consider when you choose to go through the transition. Surely you have to accept there will be times and places you can't use them.

It's like doing a shark for eating you isn't it? Knowing the risks supposedly accepting them then trying to make it look like the problem is other people not your inability to accept a side effect of a procedure?

annandale Thu 21-Sep-17 07:25:17

I'm aware that by responding first I am likely to have influenced the tone of the thread. I don't believe a transwoman is a woman or a transman is a man, and that colours my answer.

I'm also very aware that my belief, prejudice or whatever it is makes me sound exactly like a Nazi talking about Jewish people. That does give me pause.

Gileswithachainsaw Thu 21-Sep-17 07:25:38


busyboysmum Thu 21-Sep-17 07:28:10

Just popping this sign here. Saw it on Twitter last night.

I think I am coming down firmly on the side of even after surgery they still aren't women so no they can't come in our spaces, but I realise this isn't the case in law. Just my opinion.

I understand only about 5% of transwoman do have the surgery so that's an awful lot of intact penises wanting to be acknowledged as lady penises. Which is nonsense IMHO.

invisiblecats Thu 21-Sep-17 07:28:51

There is a law on the way which - if passed - will mean you can't object to a person with male genitals having access to female spaces if they say they are a woman.

Those of you who think a reasonable approach is to judge on a case hy case basis will soon find yourself on the wrong side of the law if it goes through.

Given the lack of public debate on the subject (people trying to debate this are shut down and - now - even physically attacked by trans rights activists) and that it has cross party support, it looks likely to go through.

This for example " in a situation where this individual could choose to stay out altogether? Sports, jobs that involve dealing with women who might prefer not to have a man around at that moment? Then no, a trans woman should do something else, and not be there."

... will be seen as discrimination if the law goes through.

Wheresmytaco Thu 21-Sep-17 07:31:40

I used to be a 'yes'. But I've realised that it's an arbitrary line drawn in the sand based on nothing. You can have your penise removed and still be obviously a man which will cause issues for women. I don't care about toilets, but women's safe spaces, prisons, hospitals, dv shelters are for women not anyone without a penis.

annandale Thu 21-Sep-17 07:33:49

I don't exactly mean case by case, just that I don't care about public toilets at all, but do care about single sex hospital wards, prisons, schools and sports.

Wheresmytaco Thu 21-Sep-17 07:35:22

I also appreciate the inherent danger for trans women and I think even more so for transmen in a men's prison so I would support a third option for trans disorders. But that's not my fight

Wheresmytaco Thu 21-Sep-17 07:37:47

Toilets were ever really safe spaces. Anyone could walk in them and I won't lie I've used the men's when situation was desperate. Some men use thr women's when there are no clean options for their children. Also when disabled facilities are in the main toilets it might mean that a male comes in with his disable wife. I think they're a nice polite convention that society allows but not a legal safe space

Wheresmytaco Thu 21-Sep-17 07:42:33

Male socialisation is dangerous, not male genitalia.

titchy Thu 21-Sep-17 07:43:29

I'm a little less concerned where the person has had full genital surgery. However it's a moot point isn't it - no one is going to require another person to drop their pants to check their entitlement to a particular space.

We need openly mixed gender spaces.

Pickleshickles Thu 21-Sep-17 07:43:52

Annadale not believing a man is a woman is nothing like believing Jews are not human. Presumably you don't wish to erradicate them.

We're all being gaslighted into double think.

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