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Janice Turner article in today's Times

(113 Posts)
Stopmakingsense Sat 16-Sep-17 07:33:28

september 16 2017, 12:01am, the times
The battle over gender has turned bloody
janice turner

Women who believe that their rights are threatened by transgender activists now find themselves at risk of assault

When is it OK to punch a woman? I’ve pondered this question since Wednesday evening when I watched a 60-year-old in specs and sensible shoes called Maria being smacked in the face. Yet I learn from her assailant’s defenders that it’s fine. Punch harder next time, guys! Because “acts of physical violence against those who are systemically violent are self-defence”.

I was at Speakers’ Corner waiting, along with about 80 others, to learn the secret location of a meeting entitled, “What is gender? The Gender Recognition Act [GRA] and beyond”. It was all very cloak and dagger because the original venue, a south London community centre, had cancelled the previous day on health and safety grounds. Which is one way of saying “trans rights activists harangued our staff and threatened, via various Facebook groups, to cause havoc if it went ahead”. Then, hearing of the Hyde Park rendezvous, they rang every conceivable venue within a mile radius to promise mayhem. Having failed to find it, about 15 of them arrived at Speakers’ Corner with placards saying “TERFs not welcome.”

TERF stands for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. But lately the definition has expanded to include any woman worried that permitting men who “self-identify” as female to enter women’s changing rooms or refuges unchallenged makes her less safe. Which is exactly what will happen if reform of the GRA, as championed by Maria Miller, who chairs the Commons women and equalities committee, goes ahead this autumn.

TERFs, according to trans activists, are evil. TERF is the new witch. Search on Twitter for “TERFs must die” or “burn in a fire, TERF” and behold a cauldron of violent vitriol. Before the meeting, a trans-woman posted: “Any idea where this is happening? I want to f* some TERFs up, they are no better than fash [fascists].” Search “punch a TERF” and you will find crowing approval of what happened to Maria.

So at Speakers’ Corner trans activists and feminists were chanting and taunting each other. Maria was taking photographs when an opponent grappled with her, snatched her camera and smashed it on the ground. Then a tall, male-bodied, hooded figure wearing make-up rushed over, hit her several times and as police arrived, ran away. I asked a young activist if she was OK with men smacking women: “It’s not a guy, you’re a piece of s* and I’m happy they hit her”, came the reply.

After that, organisers whispered the secret venue and attendees peeled off towards the University Women’s Club where one of the feminists, an engineer, is a member. Activists chased them through Mayfair streets in a black cab, but were stopped at the door by the club’s magnificent pearl-clad chairwoman. And in a grand library the meeting finally took place, with the trans activists outside chanting; “Burn it down!”

I wouldn’t trouble Times readers, no doubt weary of reading daily about gender-fluidity and schoolboys in frocks, with this affair if it didn’t reveal such serious issues. Changes to the very definition of “man” and “woman” are being proposed, yet it is almost impossible to hold a public meeting to discuss them. Wednesday’s speakers were a lesbian academic and a trans woman. Two members of the LGBT group Stonewall initially agreed to take part in what was to be a debate, but dropped out. Winning arguments is far harder for the trans lobby than shutting them down.

Winning arguments is far harder than shutting them down
Mainly because trans demands and women’s rights are often in such clear and irreconcilable conflict. Take Martin Ponting, jailed in 1995 for raping two girls, one disabled. After cosmetic surgery, but still possessing male genitalia, Ponting, now called Jessica Winfield, was moved to Bronzefield women’s prison but after making unwanted sexual advances to inmates has been segregated. Are you appalled that a rapist is confined with women prisoners, mainly non-violent offenders and themselves often victims of male sexual abuse? Do you think the Soham murderer Ian Huntley should never be allowed to transfer even if, as reported, he calls himself “Lian”? Then you too are a TERF and deserve to be punched.

When white supremacists marched through US streets, the left concluded it was fine to counter-attack heavily armed racist militia who posed a physical threat to ethnic minorities. But certain trans activists have extrapolated: they believe debate itself makes them “unsafe”, so it is self-defence to attack those who are “systemically violent”, ie anyone with whom they disagree.

This combination of declared victimhood and ruthless vengeance has so far achieved its goal: silence. Maria Miller, chairing her GRA inquiry, did not even call prison gender experts who submitted their fears that male sexual offenders transition into women to be closer — how amazing! — to potential victims. When Miller’s report went before parliament only one MP, the fearless Caroline Flint, raised potential conflicts with women’s safety, for which she was eviscerated online.

But the tide is turning and the trans activists have a lot more people to punch. Like women athletes who fear their sports will soon be meaningless if trans women are allowed to compete; teachers horrified by an epidemic of adolescent girls binding their breasts, persuaded by extreme internet blogs that they’re in the “wrong body”; psychiatrists fearful of demanded changes to gender treatment protocols which will make advising “wait and see” to confused teenagers rather than shoving them straight on hormones a hate crime.

So when is it OK to punch a woman? When she won’t do what you want; when you don’t like what she says. Some things never change.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g Sat 16-Sep-17 07:40:36

Thanks for that. I'm aghast at what has happened. Perhaps this will help the general public to reach peak trans and start saying no to self-identity.

SeraphinaDombegh Sat 16-Sep-17 07:56:02

A very well-written article. It's good to see the truth being told and given such a wide audience. We need to fight for the right to debate and discuss these things without fear of violence.

Datun Sat 16-Sep-17 07:58:24

That's bloody brilliant.

I believe the tide is turning.

Incidents like that of Wednesday are abhorrent.

This issue has been played out largely online and the general public are still relatively unaware.

If they ever are exposed to the word terf and the vitriol associated with it, this article has pre-empted the idea that it may not apply to them. The word terf will apply to almost everyone. And now they know.

SummerflowerXx Sat 16-Sep-17 08:00:25

Hallelujah, the line about not being able to discuss the changes to the definitions of man and woman is the crux of the matter. We live in a democracy.
I massively hope she is right about the tide turning.

fruitlovingmonkey Sat 16-Sep-17 08:02:36

Thank you again, Janice. We are all behind you.

Shashuka Sat 16-Sep-17 08:04:31

Great article. Shame this is posted in Feminist chat as I think that needs wider readership from many woman who would agree with every word but don't identify with this section of MN.

I'm also sad this is behind a paywall otherwise I would tweet it far and wide.

NYConcreteJungle Sat 16-Sep-17 08:04:38

Hallelujah, the line about not being able to discuss the changes to the definitions of man and woman is the crux of the matter. We live in a democracy.


KarlosKKrinkelbeim Sat 16-Sep-17 08:09:06

I love this woman. She just hits the nail on the head every time. And in the current climate, that's brave.
flowers for you Janice

Hardlyhangingon Sat 16-Sep-17 08:10:33

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cheminotte Sat 16-Sep-17 08:13:23

Thanks for copying the whole text out.

Caspiana Sat 16-Sep-17 08:14:28

Brilliant article.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel Sat 16-Sep-17 08:15:06

I am very impressed with the Times publishing this and being prepared to engage with the issue of transgenderism more intelligently, honestly and bravely than any other paper (and without the stirriness of the Mail).
It lives up to the best of the Times's history imo.

exLtEveDallas Sat 16-Sep-17 08:16:09

Thank you for posting this. Janice, that is an excellent article. I just wish more people would get to see it.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel Sat 16-Sep-17 08:16:41

And who would have thought it would be the Times that stands up for women's rights now the Guardian has given up on them...

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Sat 16-Sep-17 08:17:50

She was writing last week about these vile male labour politicians who think it's perfectly fine to attend "community" meetings from which women are excluded "because it's cultural, innit". People go on about Jacob Rees mogg but I am truly frightened about what might happen to women if Corbyn gets a sniff at power. But at least we'll have our own railway carriages eh?

Stopmakingsense Sat 16-Sep-17 08:18:35

After being a Guardian reader all my adult life, I have cancelled my subscription and taken one out with The Times.

CanIBuffalo Sat 16-Sep-17 08:24:16

Thanks Janice. flowers

enoughisenough12 Sat 16-Sep-17 08:24:36

A great article. And it's very prominently displayed. The btl comments can be quite thoughtful as well (much of the time).
They're offering a cheap online 3 month subscription and I have happily paid, given how many gender critical articles they are publishing.

Hardlyhangingon I think one of the things we can do is repeatedly and respectfully challenge the silencing, the intimidation and the violence and highlight the 'any criticism is actual violence' lunacy by clearly advocating for the rights of women to our long and hard fought for rights.

SummerflowerXx Sat 16-Sep-17 08:25:50

Janice Turner is on Twitter and usually links to her articles at some point - you can retweet and show your support that way. It is also possible to read a couple of articles a day free, i think, if you register.

Janice Turner has been a brave and somewhat lone voice in the mainstream media, any retweets or likes I think would be good to show support.

BestIsWest Sat 16-Sep-17 08:34:25


Ilovesliz Sat 16-Sep-17 08:40:15


NotAgainYoda Sat 16-Sep-17 08:42:24

I so appreciate that Janice Turner is shining light i=on this so eloquently, in a mainstream, respected publication. Thank you Janice!

SophoclesTheFox Sat 16-Sep-17 08:43:39

Brava, Janice! I'm another who has given up lifelong guardian readership because they've slid so dismally into click bait and really shoddy journalism on women's issues. Have flirted with the Indy, but with stuff like this the Times could lure me back!

I'm actually easing back on online journalism full stop, and have started buying the New Statesman (for Helen Lewis, Sarah Ditum and Glosswitxh) instead, supplemented by the occasional Exonomist and FT for a bit of balance. With all the data gathering and tracking that goes on, I worry that my online reading gets too tailored to one point of view, and that newspapers chasing clicks just don't do good journalism any more. I prefer to pay for something better quality than get crap for free. Anyway, that's a tangent, bloody well played Janice!

Ilovesliz Sat 16-Sep-17 08:45:02

Ok. Deep breath. Here goes.

Why is it OK with men identifying as female but it is not OK for the Swedish lady to identify as being black?

I get that some men have more female genes than male genes, but there are some who don't and yet still want to be housed in a female prison..

Doesn't our DNA reveal that we are all descended from the first Africans?

Genuine question.

HumphreyCobblers Sat 16-Sep-17 08:47:50

This is a brilliant article. Thank you Janice.

YetAnotherSpartacus Sat 16-Sep-17 08:51:38

Excellent article! Thank you Janice!

GinevraFanshawe Sat 16-Sep-17 08:52:19

Hi ilovesliz there are no men with female genes, and no, it's not ok.

Ktown Sat 16-Sep-17 08:59:04

Men don't have female genes! They have a bloody Y chromosome, hence they are male.
I read the guardian and Hadley freedman needs to get on board with this. She is gender critical.
The rest of the guardian is a little too far the other way.
It's fine to press for trans equality but not at the expense of females (am not bothering to use women as a term anymore since it can now mean Y chromosome).
Stick to facts.

ladyballs Sat 16-Sep-17 09:00:30

Great article, thanks for sharing it.

Datun Sat 16-Sep-17 09:03:46


You can't change your DNA or your chromosomes. Men have XY chromosomes, women have XX.

(A few people are intersex, but that is a genetic disorder).

When you say Swedish lady, are you talking about Rachel Dolezal? She pretended to be black as she identified with black people. She was roundly criticised by everyone, including, ironically, transactivists.

Men who claim to be women, are still genetically male. Through and through. Gender dysphoria is a condition, similar to anorexia, where your anatomy feels wrong. It doesn't make you female.

Presenting as female helps to alleviate the symptoms. Which everyone is perfectly happy to accommodate. But it doesn't turn you into a woman.

Thelilywhite Sat 16-Sep-17 09:05:15

Thanks OP. Good old Janice.

woman11017 Sat 16-Sep-17 09:08:16

Great article. Excellent feminist social media campaigning. smile Thanks for posting OP flowers

iseenodust Sat 16-Sep-17 09:08:59

Have shared on Twitter. Worth doing as seems like the pay barrier is not in place on this article.

SuburbanRhonda Sat 16-Sep-17 09:11:32


I will never stop using the word "women" to describe women.

WillowWeeping Sat 16-Sep-17 09:17:47

Great article - if you like it tell people, share it, tweet it, write to the editor. Be vocal in your support: the TAs will be busy planning how to "take down" the Times. Show them that their stance is appreciated.

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus Sat 16-Sep-17 09:18:42

* But at least we'll have our own railway carriages eh?*

Well we won't, it will be stuffed full of "female" penis owners in the brave new world.

Great article.

I am sickened by the activists who are either defending the violence or claiming it didn't happen. They are exactly like a violent, abusive man.

SamShamAndThePharaohs Sat 16-Sep-17 09:19:56

Thank you Janice.

YetAnotherSpartacus Sat 16-Sep-17 09:21:46

I am sickened by the activists who are either defending the violence or claiming it didn't happen. They are exactly like a violent, abusive man

Most of them are violent abusive men.

Izzy24 Sat 16-Sep-17 09:22:05

Thanks OP for this.

Very testing times.

DontBuyANewMumCashmere Sat 16-Sep-17 09:34:51

Great article, fabulously worded. Thanks for copying it out.

I am nervous of publicly sharing this or commenting online - isn't that awful? I'm scared to have an opinion and voice it. blush

I just don't know how to eloquently word my opinion and don't want to tie myself in knots or offend some of my many LGBTQ friends who are nominally Trans allies but would by horrified by this week's attack and would condemn it.

There was a Pool article on FB about the 'boy-in-a-dress' parents and ALL of the comments were shaming the couple and incorrectly assessing the issue as them being scared of a boy wearing a dress rather than 6 yr olds being punished for not accepting that a boy can become a girl and potentially accidentally deadnaming him/her (no offence meant, isn't the child in this instance 'changing genders' regularly? Surely this would be easier to explain if he just wanted to be called his girl name all the time and wear dresses all the time; I think the changing confuses the situation even more)

Anyway. I always read these threads and never comment. I don't have anything to add that others don't word much better than me.
I'm scared of being seen as a bigot when I am an LGBTQ ally and have worked with two kind and funny Trans people, and don't have any problem with men dressing as women and wanting to be called Susan... just not expecting every one to call them women and change the meaning of woman.
(What wrong with being called transwoman anyway? Why do they need us to accept them as biological women? Why not just say Yes I'm a transwoman and am finally happy now I've changed?)

IrenetheQuaint Sat 16-Sep-17 09:35:51

Great article. The Guardian has an article today by a detransitioner who thinks he was pushed into transitioning far too quickly with no discussion of his issues:

Plus an article by Hadley Freeman about everyone being non-binary.

AssignedPerfectAtBirth Sat 16-Sep-17 09:35:58

Maybe post in one of the faster boards OP? People need to know about this.

(I can do it but didn't want to step on your thread)

hambo Sat 16-Sep-17 09:38:53

Thank you Janice and thank you feminists of mumsnet for keeping me informed.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel Sat 16-Sep-17 09:40:37

This is the event that finally made me come out on Facebook as gender critical. If any of my friends are ok with punching a sixty year old woman for going to a feminist meeting I don't want them to be my friends any more in any case.

Cocolepew Sat 16-Sep-17 09:47:06

Great piece flowers

scaryclown Sat 16-Sep-17 09:48:18

I think the fascinating thing here is why men are so disabled by masculinity that they believe violent bullying is the first go-go method of persuasion on such a complex topic, and also why trans women so easy can draw on the rules and behaviour codes of former, and I would say exaggerated, masculinity, when they want to 'win' a xmconfkict rather than use the conflict resolution tools more characteristic of women and less bestial types of male.

It's an odd mix. Can't we just have a third gender, male, female and hybrid?

scaryclown Sat 16-Sep-17 09:57:32

I would have thought trans women are one of the last groups that should advocate assault on people who disagree with your gender definition I would imagine they have forgotten that once they become women, they are supposed to plead to authority, not take it (as you can if you are the dominant class/gender) I agree that violence can be the last resort of a oppressed group to wake up an authority with overwhelming resources and blindness, but this particular issue has had a surprising amount of intellectual, cultural and legal interest and support by using higher conflict resolution techniques.

PerkingFaintly Sat 16-Sep-17 09:58:54

Excellent article, articulates it very well. Thanks for posting that.

Butterymuffin Sat 16-Sep-17 10:06:14

This is good to see. Well done Janice Turner.

yumyumpizza Sat 16-Sep-17 10:08:20

Brilliant article!!! Agree 100%. What can we do to help??

DJBaggySmalls Sat 16-Sep-17 10:08:39

Brilliant article, thank you Janice.

“acts of physical violence against those who are systemically violent are self-defence”.
By 'those' do they mean 'people who belong to a class' or 'people who are actively violent'?
'Terf' is not an identifiable class its whoever you say it is at the time.

MP's are going to debate the bill, we can debate it, and we can certainly talk about what effect it will have on us. This is the UK, not North Korea.
If people think that boundaries erase them, thats their dysphoria talking.

YogaDrone Sat 16-Sep-17 10:09:49

Thanks for sharing this OP. Well done Janice. Well written and critically excellent article. I hope she knows that she's probably letting herself in for a torrent of hate from TRAs and their handmaidens.

QueenLaBeefah Sat 16-Sep-17 10:12:59

Well done Janice Turner. It's now inevitable that this debate is going to enter the mainstream. The trans activistism inherent gaslighting cannot withstand honest and open debate.

Puffpaw Sat 16-Sep-17 10:38:13

Thank you Janice! I've renewed my subscription to the Times just for your writing.

busyboysmum Sat 16-Sep-17 10:45:07

Can we get this on AIBU or chat for traffic? Needs sharing and discussing far and wide.

Ifitquackslikeaduck Sat 16-Sep-17 10:59:30

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun Sat 16-Sep-17 11:01:23


It's already on chat.

cinnamonwoman Sat 16-Sep-17 11:01:28

Thanks for posting

Also, looooong time lurker, de lurking....finally!!

Datun Sat 16-Sep-17 11:03:05


Fantastic. Big up to the lurkers!

fruitlovingmonkey Sat 16-Sep-17 11:23:21

I've just bought a subscription to The Times in support of Janice. I hope someone from The Times reads this. It's a pretty big deal for me, as I've been a Guardian reader my whole life, but they will not get a penny of my money while they prioritise the trans agenda and ignore women's rights.

CeeBeeBee Sat 16-Sep-17 11:30:21

I've shared the article on FB and I hope it receives maximum exposure. No responses of any kind yet though.

AlistairSim Sat 16-Sep-17 11:32:50

I'm so happy to see this!

busyboysmum Sat 16-Sep-17 11:36:04

Last time I shared anything like this on Facebook there was radio silence from the women. 4 male friends and my brother discussed with me and were appalled but not a word from the women.

thecatfromjapan Sat 16-Sep-17 11:42:33

smile @ Janice.

TanteRose Sat 16-Sep-17 11:50:31

Thanks for C&Ping the article - really excellent piece by Janice

qumquat Sat 16-Sep-17 12:49:56

You can see the article for free if you register. Great article thank you Janice. I was also pleased the Guardian ran the detransitionaing article. Also a good article in the Independent about the risks of transitioning children.

ErrolTheDragon Sat 16-Sep-17 12:52:28

And who would have thought it would be the Times that stands up for women's rights now the Guardian has given up on them...

Anyone who's read it for a while. Its more grown up and balanced than any other UK paper I know of (I know thats a low bar) but at least its journalists are not all singing from the same hymn sheet.

It may be surprising in a paper owned by Rupert Murdoch, but for all his faults, it occurred to me that perhaps as an American he has some appreciation the virtues of freedom of thought and investigative journalism as exhibited by e.g The Washington Post?

rookiemere Sat 16-Sep-17 12:58:54

That's a good article - thanks for sharing it.

I feel like we're lone voices. We discussed the boy in a dress as general chit chat on Wednesday. I tried to put across the point that it wasn't so much the boy in a dress that the parents objected to, but the fact that he was now to be referred to as she, which must be confusing for young children. I also went on to say that I thought it was great that boys were wearing dresses - that everyone should wear what they wanted - but wearing a dress didn't and shouldn't make you a girl.

They looked at me as if I'd just said that Trump was a great guy and I supported all his policies.

I still worry that people - particularly women, are so worried about not appearing accepting of all, that they'll sleep walk away all our hard won rights, in order not to upset a teeny tiny percentage of the population.

NotAgainYoda Sat 16-Sep-17 13:00:48


I agree

I've been able to discuss this with a few men. Not my female friends

ErrolTheDragon Sat 16-Sep-17 13:00:59

Just in case anyone with a Times subscription doesn't realise, you can now get links - like the one in the first post - which allow you to share content. There's a limit of the number per edition, I think, I'm not sure how many.

YetAnotherSpartacus Sat 16-Sep-17 13:04:04

Errol - is there any way to save as a file - maybe pdf? I couldn't figure one out.

enoughisenough12 Sat 16-Sep-17 13:14:53

@ErrolTheDragon I'm another one who can't believe that I'm actually reading and appreciating The Times - but it is true that their journalism is very thoughtful and much less 'proselytising' than the Guardian. Of course there are right wing commentators but I am amazed at how often alternative views are presented. It really doesn't come over as the 'voice of the establishment' any more. In fact it is highly critical of the current shower.

BeyondNoone Sat 16-Sep-17 13:16:28

I've just bought a subscription, and the person I spoke to is going to let them know that it was Janice's article that prompted me

Blanchefleur Sat 16-Sep-17 13:45:06

Brilliant! Thank you Janice, and thank you OP for sharing.

ErrolTheDragon Sat 16-Sep-17 14:04:48

A newspaper which only has commentators which share your viewpoint isn't worth the (virtual) paper its written on. I reserve the right not to read Melanie Phillips though.grin

OlennasWimple Sat 16-Sep-17 16:49:42

Excellent article.

I feel like we need to start shouting loudly about how TRAs are just using the age old excuses violent men make when they use physical violence* to shut women up.

"She was asking for it"

"She wouldn't stop going on about it"

"She drove me to do it with her incessant whining"

"If she hadn't been nagging all the time, I wouldn't have had to shut her up"

"She knew what would happen if she kept winding me up, and she still kept going on and on and on"

*aka real "literal violence"

IndominusRex Sat 16-Sep-17 17:46:28

More and more people are having their eyes opened. The problem is that the authorities refuse to see it and people are too scared to speak out. I think change is coming though, I really do.

retreatwhispering Sat 16-Sep-17 17:53:40

HURRAY! Another one ditching the Guardian for the Times. I dislike misogyny more than Murdoch.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Sat 16-Sep-17 17:59:16

Is that pompous twat rusbridger still editor of the grauniad? Anyone fancy emailing him to tell him he's haemorrhaging readers because his rag is more mired in misogyny than the murdoch press? grin

Elendon Sat 16-Sep-17 18:07:09

I'm never going to read the times but I will read Turner. Murdoch is misogyny and patriarchy.

Thanks for posting.

Elendon Sat 16-Sep-17 18:08:06

The editor of the Guardian is a woman. Katharine Viner.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Sat 16-Sep-17 18:15:32

Then she's doing an even worse job than her predecessor, which I suppose is a feat in itself

fruitlovingmonkey Sat 16-Sep-17 18:15:54

Women's rights above all else in my eyes retreatwhispering.
To any other Guardian readers, do you know that their darling shitbag Owen Jones is retweeting some twat who claims that Maria provoked and attacked the TAs.

SophoclesTheFox Sat 16-Sep-17 18:22:23

Owen Jones, the cleverest boy in the sixth form <rolls eyes>

Doesn't surprise me in the least, he's the poster boy for the right-on lefty dude who chucks women under the bus at the first opportunity.

AssassinatedBeauty Sat 16-Sep-17 18:32:17

Just read that twitter thread... wow. How it's possible to pick on someone who runs at you and hits you I don't know. Plus the description of that person as a young thin weak trans girl is ridiculous if you've seen the footage. It's a male bodied adult who is the aggressor in the situation. It's really astounding to see how determined some people are to try and twist and spin a story to make them out as the victims.

OlennasWimple Sat 16-Sep-17 18:45:46

Funny how "anti-bullying campaigner" Paris Lees has been silent on this incident of clear and outright bullying and abuse of women... hmm

BeyondNoone Sat 16-Sep-17 19:05:47

You might want to look at this quickly before it's deleted...

HornyTortoise Sat 16-Sep-17 19:10:38

Amazing article. Dare I hope the tide is finally turning...the more people think even just a little more about this stuff than the usual 'transphobia, bad' that we are expected to do...the more people will see how much bollocks it all is.

Cooroo Sat 16-Sep-17 23:07:57

Great article. So many people are totally unaware of the batshit goings on, this puts the story out there in a wonderfully articulate way.

BeyondNoone Sat 16-Sep-17 23:36:53

The daily mail's umm... interpretation here

ErrolTheDragon Sun 17-Sep-17 00:22:25

Well, I suppose at least the DM seems to know who is a feminist and who isn't, which is more than you can say for the Guardian sometimes.

And I'm puzzled by the last para - who are Trans Health London? The name sounds TRA-ishbut the statement seems to be supporting exactly what the feminists were doing confused

Datun Sun 17-Sep-17 00:51:38


Action for Trans Health London is where the transactivists came from.

They are the ones who 'liked' the I want to fuck up some terfs comment. They are the ones who rang around trying to find a venue. They are the ones who called all the transactivists to arms in the first place. They are responsible for it.

Their original statement after the violence put the blame entirely on the victim. It has since been deleted, unfortunately.

Perhaps they knew that comment was going in the Daily Mail. But it is not what they said. At all. The opposite in fact. Just banged on and on about violence to transwomen.

Datun Sun 17-Sep-17 01:07:16


BetsyM00 Sun 17-Sep-17 01:13:30

ErrolTheDragon I believe if you replace the word women with transwomen in that statement you will be closer to Action for Trans Health London's viewpoint. They think the feminists were the violent ones.

ErrolTheDragon Sun 17-Sep-17 01:24:54

Its bizarre, isn't it? Surely anyone can see who is committing the all too literal violence, hatred, misogyny and intimidation.

Well, hopefully the police investigating the incident will.

SummerflowerXx Sun 17-Sep-17 08:44:28

Glad the police are investigating. But the feminists there were not extreme, to contradict what the DM says.

It is not extreme to want debate on an issue which is fundamental to how we as a society define men and women, it effects every single person in the country directly or indirectly. That is a moderate and reasonable demand, and it should not even be an issue.

Also, DM itself also seemed to recognise that feminists oppose 'some' trans demands, which is again not extreme.

I would have been very interested to hear the discussion. It does not matter what 'side' of the debate you take, debate should be freely heard.

HornyTortoise Sun 17-Sep-17 15:23:32

TERFs are feminists who are opposed to some campaigning by transgender women

Hmm. Thats prob ably the best they could get away with. Doesn't make 'TERFs' sound evil at all, like the guardian and a such would do.

hackmum Sun 17-Sep-17 17:31:05

The Mail article is a bit of a mess. I couldn't work out whether the two journalists who wrote it really didn't understand the difference of opinion between the two groups or were deliberately trying to pretend they were both as bad as each other.

I looked them up - I couldn't find anything else by Mark Wood, but Sanchez Manning regularly reports on trans issues for the MoS. So assuming he understands what he's writing about, it does look like a deliberate muddying of the waters.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel Sun 17-Sep-17 17:36:44

Actually I have it on good authority that Sanchez Manning is on holiday and it was Wood who wrote the article, so no need to think any muddying is deliberate.

They were trying to make it look like a catfight, but when you read it carefully it does at least get right who was doing the actual violence.

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