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Seeing more and more articles like this about paedophiles.

(134 Posts)
Miffer Mon 11-Sep-17 08:15:10

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41213657

This is the first mainstream UK one I have come across but there have been a few US ones.

I am not okay with it. If you fancy kids it's not okay, it should not be accepted, it should be shunned, you shouldn't be able to talk about it, your friends should disown you, you shouldn't be able to Google this without ramifications.

From a utilitarian POV I think it's bullshit anyway. The few paedophiles that would commit less harm from support and a more accepting society will be vastly outnumbered by the harm caused by a more permissive attitude towards this.

IndominusRex Mon 11-Sep-17 09:11:44

I read this this morning and very much saw it as an attempt to normalise paedophilia as a sexuality or kink.

Flyingflipflop Mon 11-Sep-17 09:14:27

Surely it's better that men (and possibly some women) who have these urges can seek and get treatment before they create victims? If the figures in the article are correct, at the lower end of the scale that's 300,000 men at least in the UK with paedophilic tendencies. That's over 3 times the current prison population for all offences.

If those figures are correct, then either there is an awful lot of active paedophiles that haven't been caught or many, many men with these urges aren't acting upon them.

Would you rather people come forward and put their hand up, get treatment but also perhaps are logged in some way so as their risk potentials are minimised or drive them underground and into the clutches of other 'pro contact' paedophiles?

Flyingflipflop Mon 11-Sep-17 09:17:12

I read this this morning and very much saw it as an attempt to normalise paedophilia as a sexuality or kink.

By who, and why? I'm not sure the BBC are looking to normalise it. Perhaps looking to open debate and look at things differently as pariah status hasn't worked so far.

QuentinSummers Mon 11-Sep-17 09:23:58

I find it really difficult to think this through. On one hand, if being attracted to children is like same sex attraction, then these people can't really help their feelings and it must be a miserable way to live. However I'm confused how these people claim attraction to prepubescent boys but want a marriage to a woman. That certainly suggests an element of choice in their thinking. On the other hand, I agree the narrative of normalizing it is dangerous.
I think people need medical or psychological support, not from other paedophiles on line. I think society should still condemn paedophilia.

I'm a bit hmm about the brain scans though. If it can be detected before birth perhaps the kindest thing would be termination of those pregnancies.

QuentinSummers Mon 11-Sep-17 09:25:20

flipflop your post at 9.14 is very helpful.

steppemum Mon 11-Sep-17 09:44:33

I think this is a really interesting sunject, but that it is really hard to have open conversation about it.

There was a TV program a couple of years ago by a man whp said he was attracted to children. He wanted the sunject to come out into the open, in order that help would be available.
He was interviewed at length by the journalist and the conclusion was similar to the young man in the article.
1. I am attracted to young people/children
2. I know this is wrong and I have never acted on it and never intend to act on it.
3. someone recognising that they have paedophilic tendencies does not make them a child abuser, but the general public cannot distinguish the two.
4. That the only future for him lay with getting professional help to try and change/modify/cope (not sure what is actually possible)
5. That he was terrified that without help he would one day offend. The self imposed sanctions he put on himslef were severe (never walking past schools etc)

If we accept that there are out there people who are child abusers, (and we know sadly that there are many) then we must accept that their need to abuse came from somewhere. For some it is probably power, not attraction, but for others it will be based on attraction. (just to be clear, I am not saying that is a good thing, or that we should allow/tolerate it)
Why is it so hard to believe that some people, for whatever reason, have this desire, and then, as a society, find ways of treating/helping/containing them?

If you look back through history, takes of young boys being the pawns of older men are all through every society, it must be a desire that is within humans?

JWrecks Mon 11-Sep-17 09:48:47

I've got to be frank about this, whether people agree with my opinion or not. I think it's disgusting.

I have seen a MASSIVE push, mainly amongst the really intense "identity politics" driven tweenyboppers, to normalise paedophilia and paedophiles, or as they refer to them, MAPs for Minor Attracted Persons. I think they've even given paedos their own rainbow flag. They want paedophilia classified as a common, run of the mill sexual orientation not unlike lesbian or gay or bi. Soon enough, the alphabet soup LGBTTQQIAAP will also include M if they have their way. It's bloody awful in my obviously horribly bigoted racist sexist nazi opinion.

Please don't misunderstand, I do not have a problem with people admitting to those feelings and seeking help for them, with people understanding that children cannot possibly consent no matter if they say they do or not, and trying to prevent themselves hurting children. In fact, I would applaud anyone who discovered those feelings and sought help for them; I would of course much prefer that people deal with those feelings rather than repress them and possibly hurt a child. I hope they are able to find some sort of outlet that prevents them from hurting a child and ruining lives.

And they are out there... but there are also those - I have absolutely seen them - who argue until they're blue in the face that "children are sexual beings" and that "children must - and want to - explore" and that "children can and do enjoy...." ugh I'm sorry I can't say it and I need a bath after typing that out <boak>.

I mostly see these opinions from teenagers on websites like tumblr, talking about completely normalising and openly accepting paedophilia as something to be proud of and have parades for and celebrate. And I have indeed seen those opinions, and I have indeed been called a "nazi" and who knows what else for opposing this viewpoint and asserting that nobody has any right to abuse a child, ever, even if it's something they can't help but want to do.

steppemum Mon 11-Sep-17 09:50:32

Just to add, recognising something as a mental health condition is only normalising int he snese that it then becomes something we try and treat.
We recognise that some people have psycopathic tendencies and may commit murder. Doesn't mean we go soft on them, it does mean we find ways of treating/helping them to protect the rest of society.

YetAnotherSpartacus Mon 11-Sep-17 09:51:44

That certainly suggests an element of choice in their thinking

Many men marry women out of 'choice' - women are good for cooking, cleaning, ego-boosting, reproduction, etc. Then they simply indulge their festish secretly.

SomeDyke Mon 11-Sep-17 09:54:48

This is one worrying consequence of the 'born this way' narrative that worked for lesbian and gay rights. I always preferred the even if it was a choice, there is nothing wrong with it line. Which of course does not
apply in these cases.

thedancingbear Mon 11-Sep-17 09:54:49

What flipflop said, all day long. Far better to try to understand what makes these tendencies develop, and take practical steps to curtail them.

I don't see anyone suggesting that should be treated 'normally' as a kind of kink (apart from a few nutjobs/the perpetrators themselves).

steppemum Mon 11-Sep-17 09:58:43

JWrecks - I totally see where you are coming from, and yes I have heard of groups that wnat to push for this being normal and allowable.

It reminds me of interviews with convicted child abusers who still think that the children they abused enjoyed it, that they were showing them love etc.

It is a very twisted mind set and in the hands of the wrong people can get argued into mainstream. And some of these groups are very dtermined.

But I actually think that it would help if we labelled people as being ill when they have this tendency. If we stood up stronger and said they need help, it isn't normal, it is wrong, they need supervision etc. The earlier the intervention the better. Also, at the moment the group they go to is other paedophiles for help, so they 'normalise' each other. They need to go to pyschiatrists for help, where they will understand it is not normal.

7Days Mon 11-Sep-17 10:01:24

Exactly steppemum.

I'd be happy enough to 'Kink shame' paedophiles who normalize or glorify abuse. I'm happy enough to retain the taboo.

Let people know they can seek help if they are worried about any aspect of their sexuality. And I want people to be worried if they have paedophilia tendencies. Worried enough to know that are wrong, that they may need support for a life long battle against temptation, not complacently bobbing along on the warm waters of normalization
Sucks for them, but we all have things that suck for us

CredulousThickos Mon 11-Sep-17 10:08:26

I don't understand the 'I'm scared I might offend'.

I'm attracted to men and women but I've never been tempted to assault anybody. Neither do I feel an uncontrollable urge to have sex with people when I'm walking around.

Just because someone has a kink or preference (which is what this narrative is trying to reframe it as), it doesn't equate to an uncontrollable urge to act it out.

tehmina23 Mon 11-Sep-17 10:12:12

I think peadophiles should be chemically castrated so they can't act on their urges. Any who are serious about not wanting to harm a child should go for this voluntarily!

I have personal reasons to hate paedophiles, they destroy lives.

Gentlemanjohn Mon 11-Sep-17 10:13:39

Agree with much of what JWrecks says. While on an individual to individual basis the issue is not black and white, (there are people with these predilections who do not act on them, perhaps have been abused themselves and should not be reduced to some Sun editorial moral monster), there is a worrying trend to normalise paedophilia in our culture. I really don't think articles like this are the problem, but more our wider popular culture, and internet culture in particular. I too have noticed men on forums trying to justify what is quite plainly their own deviant sexuality in terms of rights and identity discourse. And not on some MRA site but quite openly on mainstream sites like the Guardian. They recriminate feminists and anyone telling them the sexual abuse of children is a moral outrage as authoritarians, Nazis and, believe it or not, prudes.

Nobody could have said these things in the public sphere twenty years ago.

But I think the bigger problem still is pornography. Pornhub recently released their yearly stats and what I noticed is that the top search for almost every country was 'teen'. Now, these teens might be of legal age, but increasingly they are being made to look like children - with pigtails and school uniforms. Pseudo-paedophiliac porn is now fully mainstream, normalised and popular.

Secondly, there is what has been termed the 'corporate sexualisation of children' - neatly defined in this report entitled 'Corporate Paedophilia'.

Images of sexualised children are becoming increasingly common in advertising and marketing material. Children who appear aged 12 years and under, particularly girls, are dressed, posed and made up in the same way as sexy adult models. ‘Corporate paedophilia’ is a metaphor used to describe advertising and marketing that sexualises children in these ways. The metaphor encapsulates the idea that such advertising and marketing is an abuse both of children and of public morality.

www.tai.org.au/documents/dp_fulltext/DP90.pdf

Now I don't know if people are born paedophiles or not; but I would say our culture sends out a clear message to young people that children are legitimate objects of sexual desire.

It's a big problem, and no one much is talking about it.

YetAnotherSpartacus Mon 11-Sep-17 10:17:45

I have seen a MASSIVE push, mainly amongst the really intense "identity politics" driven tweenyboppers, to normalise paedophilia and paedophiles, or as they refer to them, MAPs for Minor Attracted Persons. I think they've even given paedos their own rainbow flag. They want paedophilia classified as a common, run of the mill sexual orientation not unlike lesbian or gay or bi. Soon enough, the alphabet soup LGBTTQQIAAP will also include M if they have their way. It's bloody awful in my obviously horribly bigoted racist sexist nazi opinion

This does not surprise me. After the sexual revolution in the 70s there was a push to see 'man boy love' as a normal orientation and to legitimise paedophilia.

Here is one article about it.

www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/26/lobbying-paedophile-campaign-revealed-hewitt

QuentinSummers Mon 11-Sep-17 10:20:03

Many men marry women out of 'choice' - women are good for cooking, cleaning, ego-boosting, reproduction, etc. Then they simply indulge their festish secretly.

Yes you are right. I was just thinking to get married you would need attraction but that's a very idealistic view grin

steppemum Mon 11-Sep-17 10:24:14

Good point gentlemanjohn.

It is interesting though, there have been a couple of threads on mn when someone commented on celeb photo. Typically celeb kids phot with kid in make up and posed.

Some people said is was sexualised and loads of people them pile in to say 'How dare you, it is a picture of a child, how can a child be sexualise,d it is your obscene mind that put that image in it'

But to me, a child in make up posed and any way similar to a pose that an adult might use to look sexy, includig head angle, hand at throat, and little thing like that DOES blur the line between children and adults and it is scary.

steppemum Mon 11-Sep-17 10:25:37

Quentin - I can also see that many men in this situation would try and marry in order to lead a 'normal' life.
Don't we al at some level just want to get on with life and not have to deal with being different?

Leilaniii Mon 11-Sep-17 10:27:07

So, if we are going to normalise this as a 'preference', could the same thing happens for rapists? That is a sexual preference, after all.

KarateKitten Mon 11-Sep-17 10:29:01

The sheer quantitity of men accessing child abuse images online (as unique users) would shock the hell out of all of you. The police have to pick and choose only the most serious cases but they no if so so so many more.

Gentlemanjohn Mon 11-Sep-17 10:33:23

Can't these sites be closed down KarateKitten? This is what I don't understand.

user1480334601 Mon 11-Sep-17 10:33:50

"If you fancy kids it's not okay, it should not be accepted, it should be shunned, you shouldn't be able to talk about it, your friends should disown you, you shouldn't be able to Google this without ramifications. "

This would lead to them being isolated and possibly get worse and may act on their urges. Better to get help to deal with it so no children are harmed

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