Is prostitution rape?

[BayLeaves]

I've seen posters referring to prostitution as rape on here and I am interested to hear the reasoning.

I am undecided on the issue as I have not really thought much on it before.

[Thephoneywar]

Depends. If a woman has been trafficked or coerced into it then yes, it is basically rape.

If it's a free choice then no.

[LineysRun]

Yes, because the consent is not truly free. It's contingent. It's contextual.

[Xenophile]

Yes.

If you have to pay for consent, it's not consent, it's coercion.

Coerced sex is rape.

Whether the prostituted woman feels that it is rape is only material insofar as whether or not she believes she has agency in the transaction. What the man is doing is paying a woman who wouldn't have sex with him otherwise to override her wishes by coercing her to do so with money/drugs.

This is therefore not about the woman's actions, but the man's.

[VestalVirgin]

Prostitution is women having sex with men they don't want to have sex with because the men pay them and they want/need the money.

Sex one person involved doesn't want = rape.

[lotsofconfuse]

No.
People just like to be dramatic.
Prostitution is seedy, and certain parts illegal, but it's not rape.

[SelmaAndJubjub]

I have mixed feelings on this one. I totally get the argument that sex without freely given consent is not consensual: if you have to pay someone to have sex with you, they are not truly consenting. Also, the majority of women in prostitution started before the legal age of consent and many over the age of 18 are co-erced with threats of violence or their need for drugs.

On the other hand, I am concerned that describing all prostitution as rape further removes agency from women who already tend to have very little power, as it denies that any of them can be making a free choice even those who say they are. Though the intention is benign, yet another example of telling women that they don't know their own minds. I also think that it potentially blurs legal lines at a time when rape convictions are already appallingly low.

I think it may be more helpful to characterise prostitution as a form of modern slavery than rape.

[Thephoneywar]

You can consent and be paid for something. One doesn't negate the other. I consent to paid work. I am not coerced into it.

[lotsofconfuse]

The woman who described another woman's husband (who visits prostitutes) as raping women was way over the top and hugely false.
Most prostitites/escorts live very comfortably, and if anything it's the other way around. Men being exploited!

[SelmaAndJubjub]

Most prostitites/escorts live very comfortably, and if anything it's the other way around. Men being exploited

Do you know many prostitutes, lotsf?

Maybe read <a class="break-all" href="//www.amazon.co.uk/Paid-My-Journey-Through-Prostitution/dp/0393351971/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1503325313&sr=1-1&keywords=rachel%20moran&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">this and get back to us.

[BartholinsSister]

Is it rape when if it doesn't involve penetration? I understand they offer other 'services' too.

[HelloSquirrels]

Surely it depends on the circumstances?

If it's women who have been coerced forced trafficked or threatened than yes it's rape

If it's someone who wants to sell sex then surely it's Not?

[AfunaMbatata]

Most prostitites/escorts live very comfortably, and if anything it's the other way around. Men being exploited!

You don't honestly believe what do you? The vast majority I've known have been terribly poor, suffer with severe MH and substance abuse problems. There is no was in hell that they are even slightly capable of exploiting the men.

[Dina1234]

Not unless it is obvious to the client that the prostitute has been coerced into providing services. Under British law rape is not a strict liability crime. As such a mental element (as stated above) is necessary to make rape.

[DJBaggySmalls]

If it was just another job like any other job all men would be ok with their wives doing it. But they aren't.
Every country that has legalised prostitution has seen an increase in human trafficking and child abuse. Prostitutes have a high rate of PTSD.

The myths the johns use are not supported by facts.

[XJerseyGirlX]

I don't think so. Its just another way of making money that some people would prefer. I used to be a debt collector, I think I would have rathered prostitution! Happy customers and better pay?

If they choose to make money that way how the hell is it rape?

Also , I know someone who chooses to work as an escort. Before that she was a webcam model. She likes her job and is vey brainy and could do whatever she wants (if she wanted to)

I would sorry for the men that have to use use them TBH (but that's just my opinion)

[Gonegonegone]

Consent is not given of free will, it's given for the need for money, which makes it coersing consent which is rape.

[AnyFucker]

How very hilaire lotsofconfuse

You are a punter of course

[VestalVirgin]

On the other hand, I am concerned that describing all prostitution as rape further removes agency from women

But it is not about the women.
It is about the men.

If someone holds a pistol to your head and forces you to give him all your money, would you feel offended if the police wanted to persecute him for robbery because you "made a choice" to give him the money rather than be shot?

What if a man tells his girlfriend he will leave her if she doesn't do anal? Is that a choice, then, and should she feel she has agency and is empowered if she does what he wants?

What about a husband who makes the same threat to his wife of 20 years who sacrificed her career so that he could have both a career and children? Still good, still free, still choice?

If a woman's body is a thing to be sold, then rape is just akin to theft.
And that's the very attitude that is the reason why rape convictions are so appallingly low.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

I find this a very difficult and (and interesting!) question.

I think having sex with someone is a bit of a unique "transaction", so I believe that in the case the oh get pays for "consent".

I also think that it is fairly unlikely that prostitutes enjoy having sex with a punter, even if they have decided that this is their chosen career.

So a man pays a woman to have sex with her. She has sex without complaint but without enjoying it, purely because she has been paid. Having sex with someone who you know isn't enjoying it seems awfully close to rape to me.

[VestalVirgin]

Most prostitites/escorts live very comfortably, and if anything it's the other way around. Men being exploited!

Do you also feel exploited by the fact that you could, theoretically, spend 100 000 $ for a piece of toast that allegedly has the likeness of the Virgin Mary burnt into it?

(Just talking about those "poor" men being able to waste money here; I don't mean to imply that people who spend tons of money on things they don't need are anything like punters)

[littlemisssweetness]

Yes and no. It depends on the circumstances, I've worked in the sex industry (in nz where it's more regulated- people have gone to court over not following the legislation, and that's the male users as well) and for me and a number of people ive worked with the answers no, but in other parts most definitely yes

[BertrandRussell]

"If a woman's body is a thing to be sold, then rape is just akin to theft.
And that's the very attitude that is the reason why rape convictions are so appallingly low"

This.

[VestalVirgin]

Having sex with someone who you know isn't enjoying it seems awfully close to rape to me.

This.

I don't want anything to do with men who would do this, and criminalizing punters seems like a splendid idea to reduce the number of men like this one might have the displeasure to meet in daily life.

[AdalindSchade]

Most prostitites/escorts live very comfortably, and if anything it's the other way around. Men being exploited

How on earth can anyone describe men as the exploited party when they pay a prostituted woman for sex? Do you understand what exploited means?

[PricklyBall]

I think Xenophile and Vestal have nailed it: it's about the men's attitudes. We know that some prostitutes choose their work, we know that many others are trafficked into it - and we know from the Invisible Men Project and sites like Pnet that most of the clients do not care which category the women they use fall into. That makes those men rapists. (There may of course be men who go around with their dogged-eared copy of "The Ethical Pnter" tucked under their arm, but not many I suspect).

It is also interesting to listen to the voices of prostitutes themselves. Some claim to love their work. Some claim it is just a job like any other. Some (mostly those who've exited) say it was a life of abuse and rape.

I've seen some very interesting comments from the middle group. For instance, on the occasional "I'm broke and desperate and thinking of prostitution" threads that pop up on chat (mostly started by hairy handed trolls I suspect), there are a few women who will come and talk frankly about their experiences. One comment in particular has always stuck in my mind: a prostitute who asked the OP "Can you imagine going into your local pub and giving a BJ to every man in there? The old ones, the smelly ones, the ones with personal hygiene problems, the ones with massive personality defects... Because if you can't answer 'yes' to that question, it is not the life for you."

It's always stuck in my mind as the perfect riposte to the "happy hooker, they love their jobs, the johns are the ones who're really exploited" crapola that gets spouted on these threads. Hardly any women genuinely would give a BJ to every man in the room. Those that would - well, I find myself wondering what was done to them in childhood that they could dissocciate to that degree. I can't buy the idea that it's like collecting refuse or cleaning toilets. It really isn't.