Gender Pay Gap and Gender Identity

[Seeingadistance]

Waking up angry!

I wake up to Radio 2 as my alarm, and this morning woke up to the 7.30am news bulletin in which I heard that female presenters in the BBC have written an open letter about BBC pay which has confirmed what they have long suspected - a huge disparity between the salaries of male and female.

Then, fucking then, I hear that the Government is proposing to make it easier to change one's gender identity legally!

Oh for fuck's sake!

Well, maybe the juxtaposition will show this up for how fucking ridiculous it is.

[WhereYouLeftIt]

Yes, I was wondering if the BBC would get themselves off the hook address the problem by persuading Chris Evans to declare himself a woman. After all, under the proposals it wouldn't actually affect him to do so. No need to undergo surgery, no need to present as a woman - just declare, and hey presto the top earner is a woman, what are the rest of you complaining about?

[DJBaggySmalls]

JC supported closing the gender pay gap right after he supported gender self ID.
They dont understand what gender self ID actually means.

twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/887738838713602048

The Women and Equalities Committee should be renamed.

[ethan01]

There isn't a gender pay gap. I used to think there was a pay gap a few years back, though I was quite young then and I believed everything I read in the media and saw on the news.

Before someone gets angry at me, please read what I write first. I'm not trying to offend someone, I just think feminism has some real areas it should focus and this is certainly not one.

The statistic that people keep siting, "that women earn 77 cents for every dollar(or pound) a man earns". This is extremely misleading. It compares all men and all women, it then adds it up and divides it down to the famous statistic we all hear. It does NOT compare Men and Women in the SAME job. So that makes the statistic irrelevant.

Now I have two questions.

Why would men hire men if they could hire a women to do the same work for less? (That's why people hire immigrants and children to do relatively low skilled jobs. )

Secondly lets assume there is a gender pay gap, how do why fix this?

What was that you just said, "make a law that means legally women are protected under the law so it's illegal to pay a women or a man less for the same work on the basis of gender.

Well good news! That law already exists. It has done since the 70s in the UK and the 60s in the USA. The gender pay act exists and it protects all genders from this problem.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Pay_Act_1970

So if you actually take into account men and women in the same job there is no gender pay gap. Men and women do NOT earn less for the SAME WORK.

Now having said all that why this there a disparity when adding up all women's and men's wages together. Well it's simple. Men are doing more dangerous high paying jobs (93% of work fatalities are men), they on average work longer hours and after marriage work harder and push promotions.

Whereas women tend to work more part time jobs (41% of women work part time compared to only 12% of men), they leave work more often to care for children and after returning to work tend to not be as career oriented and these are just some of the factors and the list could go on.

Now to the BBC question. You should get paid depending on how much you bring in for the company. How many viewers you get etc. These people are not doing same job so there is no pay gap.

It's simple it comes down to how much you bring in, this reflects how much you are worth. Forexample in the UFC conor mcgregor earns the most money right now, not because he is a man but because he brings in the most money for the UFC. Before it was conor, it was Rhonda Rousey, (a female fighter). because she brought in the most money for the UFC. You get paid in proportion for how much you bring in, not based on gender. People often forget, capitalism cares only about one colour. Green!

There is no issues at all here, other than maybe there wages are too high in general.

4 out of 5 of the top paid artists right now are women. Does this disparity mean there is sexism? Of course not, they make more money because more people like and listen to there music. It's simple.

I hope this clears things up for people.

[SylviaPoe]

There is no 77p to every UK pound gender pay gap. You can't just use the American data and apply it to the UK/

It is worked out by comparing equivalent jobs and equivalent hours. Why don't you look at the actual UK data on this?

[DJBaggySmalls]

ethan01
The BBC has a gender pay gap. Its been big news in the UK. Laws dont stop people doing bad things, they just lay out the penalties for if they are caught.

[ethan01]

@SylviaPoe It was trying to keep it as short as possible. That is why I didn't include too much statistics.

There is there a statistic in the UK that is similar to US one. However there is another more detailed statistic that people often site which compares certain industries, but again it adds up all the men and women in those industries and does not compare men and women in the same job.

What you have said it not a counter argument and does mean anything i said was incorrect. It does not avoid the fact this is it literally illegal. Women are protected under the law against this. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Pay_Act_1970 - they even added further legislation to this law in 2010.

And it literally goes against logic like I said in my initial post.

"Why would men hire men if they could hire a women to do the same work for less? (That's why people hire immigrants and children to do relatively low skilled jobs. )"

If you have found anything I have said to be incorrect I would be happy to see anything counter statistics or arguments. However just pointing out that there is a few different versions of the statistic does not mean what I said was wrong and is just being pedantic. Then you say " Why don't you look at the actual UK data on this?"

I have, clearly. Have you? Link your statistics and sources, or at write them in your post at least, instead being vague.

The sources I used for the statistics in the first post are:
Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings, ONS
Labour Force Survey
Labour Force Survey, ONS
gov.uk

[SylviaPoe]

Go and look at the Fawcett Society website, or the ONS.

They have the data and all the tables.

There is no stat of an overall gender pay gap in the UK of around 77%.

If you claim there is, the onus is on you to produce evidence of such a statistic.

And your posts are not short. They're verbose.

[SylviaPoe]

Or rather, a gap of 23% and a female wage of 77%.

[venusinscorpio]

Why would men hire men if they could hire a women to do the same work for less?

There are plenty of reasons. It's really not the killer argument you think it is. Women get pregnant and they are more likely to have caring responsibilities. Many managers are sexists who don't think women can do the job as well.

I do like your MRA arguments though. Not heard those before.

[MelsMam]

Jeremy Corbyn: wake the fuck up, if you care a damn about FEMALE rights !!!!

[SylviaPoe]

Here, for example, is the ONS claiming it is 18.1% overall.

visual.ons.gov.uk/find-out-the-gender-pay-gap-for-your-job/

[NotLachsAgainMother]

Lots of things are "literally illegal", it doesn't stop people doing them though

[SylviaPoe]

'a few different versions of the statistic'

Is a different version of a statistic like an alternative fact?

[ethan01]

@DJBaggySmalls

Yes, a law doesn't stop people doing bad things but companies generally don't want to end up getting sued and get huge fines or worse. Under that logic all laws are pointless, also the disparity can work both ways. Laws are in place to deter people.

The BBC incident does not even compare people in the same jobs. They are unrelated. Just being a presented clearly doesn't mean the is a blanket salary.
Gary Lineker in my opinion gets paid too much however, match of the day and other football related shows he is involved pulls in way more viewers than some breakfast TV show.

Top Gear used to get 200 million viewers world wide. I am sure Jeremy Clarkson, richard hammond and James May were some of the highest paid if not the highest. Doesn't mean there is mean it is unfair. Just because there is a disparity it doesn't mean there is sexism.

Like is said in my first post "4 out of 5 of the top paid artists right now are women. Does this disparity mean there is sexism? Of course not, they make more money because more people like and listen to there music."

[WinifredAtwellsOtherPiano]

Women are paid less per hour than men for four reasons.
A) flat out discrimination- illegal but it still happens aided and abetted by a culture of secrecy about pay
B) women being less bolshy about demanding pay rises or going for big pay rises (partly because bolshiness is socially punished in women in a way that it isn't in men)
C) unequal caring responsibilities (for parents as well as children). The need to choose "family friendly" jobs holds back ambition, restricts choice and restricts ability to move jobs for more money
D) women cluster in lower paid professions

[ethan01]

@SylviaPoe
You said it yourself "overall". I explained why that is misleading in my first post. It doesn't prove anything.

@NotLachsAgainMother read my post to DJBaggySmalls, I answered that in my response to him

[SylviaPoe]

I'm not attempting to prove anything other than what the statistic currently is. If I actually wanted to discuss the reasons for gender pay gaps I would look at specific jobs.

I have quoted that figure because you have claimed an overall figure of 77% (thus 23% gap)is 'famous' and that we have all heard of it, yet have entirely failed to provide evidence that any such figure even exists for the UK.

Why should anyone take your argument seriously when you have so far provided no sourced stats whatsoever?

[SylviaPoe]

Winifred, I would add discrimination against part time workers.

[Shenanagins]

ethan01 your first calculation is the gender pay gap, it does exist legally. The second calculation you refer to, comparing males and females in a like for like role is the equal pay gap.

The causes of the gender pay gap are hugely complex and difficult to resolve. For example, why are the majority of part time roles taken by women? Is it because they choose to take on the majority of the caring activities? Or is it that men don't want to? Or is it that it is societal expectation and we have had this message subconsciously given to both genders all of our lives?

That's only one strand of the deep issues surrounding gender pay gap. I could go on but maybe you should start to question whether there is a lot of bias in terms of career progression for females.

[ethan01]

WinifredAtwellsOtherPiano

once again not the statistics do not compare and man and a women in the same job.

Now lets answer your questions.

"Women are paid less per hour than men for four reasons."
A) flat out discrimination- illegal but it still happens aided and abetted by a culture of secrecy about pay
thats a bold claim, I would like some proof

B) women being less bolshy about demanding pay rises or going for big pay rises (partly because bolshiness is socially punished in women in a way that it isn't in men)
I don't see how it's sexism that men ask for pay rises more. There is nothing stopping a women doing it. This does not mean men are being paid more just for being men or women being paid less for being women. That's an independent choice and more men seem to do it and women. I don't see the problem their

C) unequal caring responsibilities (for parents as well as children). The need to choose "family friendly" jobs holds back ambition, restricts choice and restricts ability to move jobs for more money
statistically even when women don't have kids they still tend to choose different jobs to men, and yes after having kids women who were career oriented tend to not be after which is a point I made in the first post

D) women cluster in lower paid professions
everyone has freedom of choice to work where they want. No one is pointing a gun anyone's head and saying you have to work here

[Shenanagins]

Just to add, in the uk most organisations now legally publish their gender pay not their equal pay gap.

[ethan01]

@SylviaPoe there is nothing wrong with the statistic I sited. I chose that for a reason. It is the most well known statistic, even Obama sited it in a speech. It wasn't UK specific but we have a variant of it in the UK. It doesn't discredit anything I said in anyway and if you think it does then you are just using it to avoid arguing my points.

[ethan01]

@Shenanagins

That is one of the reasons I gave for the overall disparity and does not compare men and women in the same job.

Also companies certainly do not publish "legally" showing gender pay differences for the same job. That is illegal.

[SylviaPoe]

It may never be possible to close the gender pay gap, but it could be reduced (and indeed has been significantly over the last twenty years).

For example, if all employers had to pay the living wage, that would reduce the gap, because most people paid below the living wage are female.

There should also be an audit of apprenticeships, because they have a huge gap and yet are publicly funded. There's no market justification for state funded apprenticeships.

[DJBaggySmalls]

ethan01
Asda faces £100m equal pay battle with shopfloor staff Oct 16

www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/14/asda-equal-pay-shopfloor-staff-women