Guardian Article regarding Gayle Newland

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/15/gayle-newland-retrial

This raises so many hot topics - rape / sexual assault (by women), trans, homophobia, single-sex schools, that I could not resist posting and asking for comments!

[hasitcometothis33]

What do you think?

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

I think the world is a truly fucked place and I have no idea what to think. That's why I posted asking what others thought.

[hasitcometothis33]

The article (and headline) make specific claims. How about starting with thinking about those.

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

Errr thanks... who are you . I was raising it for general discussion. If there isn't any, so be it. As a long time FWR member I'll happily stick to contributing to other threads here you?

[Datun]

I disagree that you cannot be sucked in online, almost disbelieving the evidence of your own eyes. Or simply not go searching for evidence.

You only have to watch an episode of Catfish to realise how prevalent this is.

I tend to agree with the jury. The person was a compulsive liar, had form, was inconsistent with their statement and they're own testimony was fairly implicating.

I'm also not sure why the victim would have taken it to court if it was just an agreed upon charade that had gone wrong. What's the point?

And I vehemently disagree with the transgender lobby saying that disclosing your sex should not be a legal requirement.

Seriously, what is wrong with these people?

[hasitcometothis33]

If you like

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

Yes - I agree with you Datun.

I think one of the many questions sloshing around in my head was whether GN was as you say a compulsive liar (etc.) or whether she was the victim of (internalised) homophobia (and what this means, if anything).

Another was about why she was convicted when so many male rapists are not (not that she should not have been convicted).

[oldtrees]

It's impossible to say what the truth is from this distance and through the lens of the media.

But I certainly believe it's possible to get sucked into believing a web of lies. People believe all sorts of stuff they want to be true, particularly when it's coming from their OHs, that would sound ridiculously unbelievable when read out in a court of law.

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

Yes, I read an article recently where a woman my age (middle-aged) described being duped by a partner who claimed to be one thing (successful, single, etc.) and was in fact separated from his wife and living in a caravan whilst seeing at least one other woman ...

[Datun]

Well there was a lot of evidence. Not just he said/she said.

Although I'm in agreement that people would find this more shocking than a man raping a woman. Because, you know, that's what men do.

I can't unravel the homophobia. If any. The victim was presumably straight, falling in love with a male. The perpetrator was gay, but had to pretend to be a male in order to have the sex? Because they couldn't find a lesbian?

I can only see it being homophobic if they are both gay, but the victim didn't want to present as such or be out.

And if she's worried about publicly broadcasting her sexuality, you would think she wouldn't want it dragged through the court.

I'm far more inclined to think it went down in the way the victim says. I can easily imagine the perpetrator thinking, she must know, she simply must. Desperately wanting to stop the pretence, and convincing herself that the victim was more or less aware.

In which case, yes it's rape.

If someone wants to deceive you about their sex, what possible reason could there be? Other than they know they wouldn't get it otherwise.

Of course the conversation will then turn to what about if you present yourself as a millionaire/unmarried/not about to be arrested, etc.

[Ktown]

Both sound vulnerable and not very bright, so it is awful for them both.
I don't think the women who pretended to be a man should go to prison but as she is clearly not all there.
It is just a tragic story and I personally think both should be anonymous as they both seem to be struggling with life.

[Datun]

This sort of thing happens on Catfish all the time. The level of self deception and naivete is staggering.

And the people who do it have no compunction. Then think they can try and be friends when they are exposed on TV.

(disclaimer, I'm not an avid Catfish fan, honest! But I got sucked into one or two episodes when my son was glued to it last summer).

[Datun]

Ktown

I feel sorry for her, myself. Clearly a troubled individual. But since when has being troubled mean you don't get punished for a crime?

I don't agree with a lengthy sentence, but I do think she should be incarcerated for a length of time to give her counselling and find out what the hell is going on.

It's a huge mistake to treat lying about your sex with leniency. The power of the trans-lobby is massive and I could easily see it being made legal. They are campaigning for it already. It would expose people, mostly women, to all kinds of nightmare.

It's also completely inconsistent. They say they get killed because people find out they are trans-. And now they want to campaign for making that even worse.

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

I can't unravel the homophobia. If any. The victim was presumably straight, falling in love with a male. The perpetrator was gay, but had to pretend to be a male in order to have the sex? Because they couldn't find a lesbian

Here's what the article says "I was pretending to be a boy for a variety of reasons,” she tells the court. “All my best friends were boys at primary school, then I went to an all-girls school and was out of my comfort zone. I knew I was attracted to girls, but didn’t realise what it meant. I didn’t know any gay people. You’d use the world lesbian for name-calling.” But as Kye Fortune, she could enter online chatrooms and talk to girls. It didn’t feel wrong: she was only herself, pretending to be a boy"

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

It's a huge mistake to treat lying about your sex with leniency. The power of the trans-lobby is massive and I could easily see it being made legal. They are campaigning for it already. It would expose people, mostly women, to all kinds of nightmare

Yes - again, this is what the article says "Even though she has never given any indication that she identifies as a man, Newland’s case has been taken up by transgender activists, who believe the issues of consent it raises is something they have in common. Does it matter, they ask, if Chloe thought she had fallen in love with a man when, in fact, it was Newland? If Newland was found guilty, would that mean that someone who was transgender and did not inform a partner might also be guilty of sexual assault?"

[Datun]

I'm not at all sure the perpetrator's motivation was dictated by homophobia. She knew she liked girls, and just couldn't find a lesbian.

So she lied.

In terms of trans. How would this go down? I should imagine it's transwomen who are pushing it.

So a lesbian (possibly bisexual) woman is attracted to someone who they think is a woman, when they get to the bedroom they find out they are a man. If they are a lesbian they will be horrified. If they are bisexual, they would still have been lied to. If they are a straight man they will be equally horrified.

Who gains?

This is going to create a situation where either a woman is alone in a bedroom with a man who expects sex and is a liar. Or a staight man is alone in the bedroom with another man who expects sex and is a liar.

Either way, there is a strong likelihood that someone is going to get hurt quite badly at best or have a horribly boundary-violating experience at worse.

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

I'm not at all sure the perpetrator's motivation was dictated by homophobia. She knew she liked girls, and just couldn't find a lesbian.

So she lied

Or maybe it was internalised homophobia - wanting to deny she was a lesbian and not wanting to actively seek one out because it might confirm her identity?

Who knows? It is certainly sad that [good] counselling was not available to her, though.

The trans stuff only makes sense, I think, if like the rans you think that biology really does not matter. Remember, they think that lesbians not wanting to have sex with men with penises are prejudicial.

[AssignedMentalAtBirth]

Datun
And I vehemently disagree with the transgender lobby saying that disclosing your sex should not be a legal requirement.

Yes, absolutely.

[Datun]

YetAnotherSpartacus

You might be right about homophobia. There just seems to be an awful lot of deception and manipulation which I see as selfish and egotistical, and not really correlating to someone who is disturbed over their sexuality.

But who knows.

And yes I think this trans campaign to change the law is entirely motivated so they can trick lesbians.

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

I agree ... There are other factors that suggest a degree of psychopathic tendencies, for lack of knowledge of the correct terminology.

[QuentinSummers]

Gosh. I'm glad I wasn't on that jury (as reported).
It is interesting that a man can claim he sleepwalked into a woman's room to have sex with her, or fall and accidentally penetrate her, etc and get off but Newland didn't.
I also do find the reporting of FTM crimes transphobic - "; and in the same year Christine Wilson, who had been diagnosed with gender identity disorder, was placed on the sex offenders’ register after pleading guilty to sexual relationships with two teenage girls while disguised as a man". Yet someone like Katie Brennan can rape a man with their penis and is referred to as a woman by the press as their gender identity must be respected. Can you imagine the uproar if Katie had been described as "disguised as a woman". Such double standards.
I do find it odd to think Chloe wouldn't know she was being penetrated by a dildo and would be happy not to touch or kiss her sexual partner.

[Datun]

I do find it odd to think Chloe wouldn't know she was being penetrated by a dildo and would be happy not to touch or kiss her sexual partner.

She had her hands tied behind her head. So maybe the no kissing, no touching bit became part of the sex?

The dildo I can't comment on!

[DJBaggySmalls]

I'm surprised the conviction was overturned. I dont see how deception can be a crime in terms of money but not in terms of consent.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

I'm surprised the conviction was overturned. I dont see how deception can be a crime in terms of money but not in terms of consent

It was because of the biased summing up by the original trial judge- nothing to do whether or not this was objectively a set of circumstances which if they had happened would constitute a crime.

[newtlover]

Surely homophobia is an element, if the accused had been able to identify as a lesbian there would have been no need to masquerade as male. I kind of think there is an element of homophobia in the defence which seemed to be that what took place was consensual sex between two women who both knew they were women. As if sex between women is bound to include penetration with a substitute penis (never mind the other stuff) because, after all, that's what real sex is.