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9 year old girl seeking "Vagina surgery" and other such nonsense

(22 Posts)
Usui101 Mon 03-Jul-17 16:55:42

I cannot find the words to will just leave these two news stories here: Is this Westernised FGM? Is this child safe with their parents?

TroysMammy Mon 03-Jul-17 16:58:18

I only knew what I looked like at that age and I don't really think I was that interested in it any way.

Datun Mon 03-Jul-17 17:13:00

Links don't work?

Usui101 Mon 03-Jul-17 17:24:34

Do these work?

Datun Mon 03-Jul-17 17:32:01

Yes thanks.

The family's lawyer, barbara findlay, who chooses to spell her name without capital letters, told Global News: "The assignment of sex in this culture is done when a medical person lifts up the legs and looks at the baby's genitals. But we know that the baby's own gender identity will not develop for some years until after they're born."

Since it's the family lawyer who says this, I'm not sure I understand it. She is agreeing that sex is observed and gender identity can be acquired. So what's the problem with putting sex on the birth certificate?

Although as she makes a point of writing her name without capital letters, I'm not sure she is to be listened to, to be honest.

PoochSmooch Mon 03-Jul-17 18:24:14

How does being a non-binary transperson work? Aren't they mutually exclusive? trans means going from one option to the other from a choice of two, but non-binary surely means rejecting both of the choices? Is it because non binary is a spectrum, and you trans from one point on the spectrum to another? That makes it sound like going two stops along the Northern line.

"Well yesterday of course, I was neotrois, but of course today I have transitioned further along the spectrum and I'm now a demi-boi".

What nonsense. Why does it never occur to them that it gets us nowhere for each person to opt out of the chains of gender, and we're better off just breaking them for everyone?

NoLoveofMine Mon 03-Jul-17 18:25:59

Indeed Datun, that is a baffling comment from her. As for the general issue, a lot of what the parent says makes sense - regarding people making assumptions about them and other children due to their sex, placing them in a "box" as they describe it and ascribing them to a role deemed appropriate for their sex. However, this kind of thing strikes me as ridiculous. The way to combat that isn't to deny biology - that baby has a sex - it's to fight against gender and imposition of gender roles on people. In fact, I think the way to combat it is feminism.

This irked me: Kori Doty, a community educator who is part of the Gender-Free ID Coalition, said that those who feel different to the gender designation assigned at birth face several problems later in life trying to change their documents.

Yet again, so very regressive - to me it seems to be saying anyone who doesn't identify with the gender role given to their sex is potentially (or just is) "trans". Another way in which people who think all this is progressive are actually the complete opposite and setting us all back, cementing outdated ways of how we view girls and boys, women and men. The solution is not to enforce gender not suggest anyone who rejects gender roles is actually the wrong sex (and in doing so claim gender is natural to most).

NoLoveofMine Mon 03-Jul-17 18:32:04

That makes it sound like going two stops along the Northern line.


From Non Binary Angel to Elephant (He/Him) & Castle (the elephant definitely identifies as a man as castles are rather manly).

SomeDyke Mon 03-Jul-17 18:45:14

"The family's lawyer, barbara findlay, who chooses to spell her name without capital letters........"

P.G. Woodhouse had Psmith (the P is silent), who did it in order to distinguish himself from all the 'other' boring Smiths. Then we have the archaic two-small-f's surnames in the UK.

I'm just puzzled by anyone BOTHERING to specify that their name ISN'T to be spelt with capital letters. What next, someone who specifies the FONT as well. So, we could have psmith -- silient p, no capital, and serif fonts ONLY please.Cos I'm such a sspecial ssnowflake........................(plus I've not discovered how to do caps on my tablet, so I have decided CAPITALS are shouty, discriminatory to those in the LOWER orders of society, and just a great big conspiracy against ME in all my specialiness -- presumably by some archaic typesetter who decided to put the trays for the capital letters above the ones for the non-capital, hence upper and lower case????).

Datun Mon 03-Jul-17 19:31:36

On the other hand, (although I cannot be arsed to read Miz Snowflakes' no capital letter comments), not knowing the sex of a child would, in practice, stop people assigning them a gender role, would it not?

And, later in life, as long as their appearance was androgynous, that would continue.

Obviously, if they were female, they would still have skin in the game in terms of biology and reproductive rights etc. But might they manage to avoid objectification, harassment, an expectation that they can't do maths but are highly skilled at making a BLT?

In which case, I can see the point.

Although hiding one's sex in order to be treated correctly, does seem a little arse about face.

And not at all feminist

NoLoveofMine Mon 03-Jul-17 19:50:24

I can see that point to an extent Datun. However due to biology/human bodies there are limits to how far someone couldn't be read as their sex and treated as such no matter how they'd been raised and identified. I would entirely support being raised free of stereotyping and gender roles of course, but I think avoiding objectification and harassment would require a lot more in terms of how one appears if female if that makes sense. As you also touched upon, it's also accepting things as they are as I see it - that the only way to be treated free of sex stereotypes is to hide one's sex and the only way to avoid misogyny is not to be read as female, thus perpetuating the normalisation and acceptance of misogyny. Probably a garbled message from me!

ElusiveDuck Mon 03-Jul-17 21:06:29


The way I have had the ' non-binary transwoman ' concept explained to me was : I am trans because I was born male but I identidy as a woman, I am non-binary because on the spectrum between the genders I am somewhere centre left on the side of woman.

Basically not a very feminine transwoman... hmm

ElusiveDuck Mon 03-Jul-17 21:07:43


DJBaggySmalls Mon 03-Jul-17 21:48:54

Its ridiculous. Medical staff need to know a persons biological sex. Orientation is irrelevant to that. People might not settle into their orientation until they are in their 20's.

Datun Mon 03-Jul-17 21:52:17


You are correct, of course. I was sort of musing out loud.

Pretending you are a man so that you can be treated with respect is the opposite of feminism.

But, the concept of gender neutrality is definitely interesting. Unfortunately women are not oppressed because of their gender. Only their enforced gender roles.

Datun Mon 03-Jul-17 21:52:54

Correction. They are oppressed because of their biology. Gender roles are the means and the result.

NoLoveofMine Mon 03-Jul-17 22:08:51

Datun indeed. I feel gender neutrality should be the default for everyone in the sense people should be able to act in any way they wish, free of stereotyping and pressure to conform to certain behaviours and so none of it should be associated with a particular sex. Given gender is artificially created and ascribed I don't see why anyone should associate with it.

They are oppressed because of their biology. Gender roles are the means and the result.

Very much so. No matter how we "identify" or present, being biologically female is a reality and the root of the oppression of women and girls. The only way to combat this is fighting that oppression which this current march towards anyone not conforming to those gender roles being "trans" sets back hugely I feel.

PoochSmooch Tue 04-Jul-17 06:52:34

Thank you, elusive, that makes absolutely no sense at all grin

Datun Tue 04-Jul-17 07:38:32

Pooch and elusive

I think I get it. If someone who is not trans is non-binary, they don't adhere to either the masculine or the feminine.

Since they feel they were born female, they are just extending the same logic that would be a applied to a natal born female.

As a natal born female can present is a masculine way, and as they are as much a female as anyone else, they can too.

PoochSmooch Tue 04-Jul-17 10:12:16

But it's barking, Datun!

Biological male believes he is a biological female, but simultaneously wants people to pretend that it doesn't matter/they can't tell if he is male or female, because he doesn't adhere to the stereotypical traits of either, which he says don't make you male or female anyway.

How did we end up where people can say any of that with a straight (bi?) face? HOW??

WhereYouLeftIt Tue 04-Jul-17 11:05:09

It looks to me as if Kori Doty, the transgender non binary is actually a natal female. Daily Caller obviously finds it irritating, referring to her as 'mother' and her child as 'daughter'. And other reports have said KD 'gave birth', and photos would suggest female to me too, despite the sparse beard.

I find KD's and her lowercase lawyer's inability to separate sex from gender deeply irritating. Yes, you can identify the sex of a baby.

And whilst I would absolutely welcome a world where your sex did not come with the baggage of a gender role - this pantomime is not going to achieve that.

Datun Tue 04-Jul-17 11:19:49

How did we end up where people can say any of that with a straight (bi?) face? HOW??

Because people are frightened to offend.

They would rather lie, pretend or bury their head in the sand and assume it won't really affect them.

Women, that is.

Men have absolutely no trouble offending. If it affects them, which this doesn't.

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