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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

I hate the terms MtT and FtT.

28 replies

Miffer · 03/07/2017 01:15

This is all going to be a bit garbled so apologies in advance.

Okay, I wanted to post a thread about transwomen who are allies and what their role is/could be in feminist thought, especially around harmful masculinity. I fell at the first hurdle wondering how to title my thread.

I hate the MtT and FtT terminology, I see it as really dehumanising. I get why people use it but it makes really uncomfortable. I don't see how we can argue that people are biologically male or female (let's just leave intersex for the time being) then use "Male to trans" as a thing. From the other side these people are still male if they are trans, isn't that the whole point?

I like the words transman and transwoman as I feel it's clearly defined enough, being one word, to work as intended as it removes the need to add anything to "woman" or "man" when talking about none trans people. That said I have read why other poster object to this and understand completely.

Is it okay that I like to call trans women I respect "her" and "she"? I mean really, obviously I am not asking for permission but rather other peoples thoughts.

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Miffer · 03/07/2017 01:18

By they way the point of the thread is to kick of a discussion around the language we use when talking about these things. I know this has been discussed in other threads but not (to my recollection) as a main topic.

That said it probably has and I apologise if I am flogging a dead horse.

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SerfTerf · 03/07/2017 01:24

ISWYM. I wonder if something like GMT & GFT (genetically male/female trans) would work?

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VestalVirgin · 03/07/2017 01:25

I'm on the fence about this.

I'd usually say that pronouns are a social construct anyway, and some languages have neutral ones, so it really doesn't matter which ones you use.

And that "transman" is clear enough.

But that was what we used to believe, and then came the transactivists and preyed on our willingness to be nice to trans people and demanded that now we must pretend that they are actually the other sex.

Some use TIF and TIM, trans identified female and trans identified male, respectively.
I feel that's most accurate. Though probably best for talking to feminists who know what it is all about.

The average person in Europe (not sure about the US) will not understand that "transwomen" are actually male, and will likely not understand MTT or TIM, either. So there, it doesn't really matter.

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Miffer · 03/07/2017 01:31

Some use TIF and TIM, trans identified female and trans identified male, respectively.
I feel that's most accurate. Though probably best for talking to feminists who know what it is all about


I like that a lot.

I am only thinking about talking about it in online feminist spaces. In real life other factors affect how I speak about these things. At work I would say Transwoman (Nobody can hear a space!) but at home I use a number of terms depending on the person. For instance I wouldn't describe Sophia Burset in the same way as I would Alex Drummond/

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SerfTerf · 03/07/2017 01:32

When I was new to the whole subject, I had to stop and think about "transman" and "transwoman" every single time. They're not intuitively meaningful to me. There's something vector-like in the way MtT and MtF convey the direction of the transition, which is helpful to me, but I do take @Miffer's point about the dehumanising tone. I'd love to win this battle without being unnecessarily offensive to anyone. I'm sure my stance is offensive enough in some quarters.

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SylviaPoe · 03/07/2017 01:42

I don't like the terms either.

But I do think it is worth considering that some transmen have, due to medical treatments, testosterone levels far outside the range of what women have, and so in that sense they have become something other than simply female. It's not just a social change; it is a biological one.

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EBearhug · 03/07/2017 01:47

I get the point about dehumanising, but transmit, transwoman - they're not as clear as MtT or FtT. Did a transman start as a women and is now a man, or vice versa?

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VestalVirgin · 03/07/2017 01:53

But I do think it is worth considering that some transmen have, due to medical treatments, testosterone levels far outside the range of what women have, and so in that sense they have become something other than simply female. It's not just a social change; it is a biological one.

True.

We should differentiate between those who have taken testosterone and those who have not, but that's hard to do when the transactivists never differentiate at all.

TIF for those who made no changes and FTT for those who have?

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SylviaPoe · 03/07/2017 02:02

I assume I'm holding a minority view within people who are gender critical. Most gender critical people consider there just to be female and male.

As far as I'm concerned there are male people who state they are male, female people who state they are female. But there are also people who state they are trans (trans women, trans men, non binary, gender fluid etc etc) who may be male, may be female or may be people who have been prescribed medical treatments which have an impact on their physical strength, aggression levels etc. As I cannot be certain of anything, I'm going to consider all trans people to be non females as they are deliberately creating uncertainty and ambiguity around what sex they actually are.

That's about my own safety and wellbeing, not theirs.

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VestalVirgin · 03/07/2017 02:20

As I cannot be certain of anything, I'm going to consider all trans people to be non females as they are deliberately creating uncertainty and ambiguity around what sex they actually are.

That's a good idea and one I am going to adopt, actually.

The non-binary person who I thought was female and who screamed death threats at me was really a wake-up call - I thought I could trust that person to be reasonable and treated her as female, (by trusting her more than I would a random male) but the misogyny and aggression level was really more male typical.

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SylviaPoe · 03/07/2017 02:26

I appreciate there are situations where people are attempting to honestly and clearly state what they have and have not done physically, and situations where the discussion is around treatments being carried out on children.

But these are very different to people deliberately creating ambiguity. And that is what 'queer' means in the queer theory sense. Queer means ambiguity and uncertainty. It's one of the reasons why I dislike it being applied to LGB people, because that isn't usually the intention of LGB people at all.

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OkPedro · 03/07/2017 02:26

It makes my head feel like it's going to explode 😫

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erinaceus · 03/07/2017 02:31

I like AMAB and AFAB - assigned male at birth and assigned female af birth. If you want to switch pronouns, no biggie although I have trouble keeping up some days.

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SylviaPoe · 03/07/2017 02:35

AMAB and AFAB don't say what somebody states they are currently though, which is what everyone is trying to describe.

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VestalVirgin · 03/07/2017 02:36

People are not assigned a sex at birth. A sex is observed.

I consider it very counterproductive to use that sort of language (and perhaps that is why I am wary of "transwoman" and "transman" too.)

By using their words, you submit to their tyranny.

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erinaceus · 03/07/2017 02:40

Valid. Maybe AFAC and AMAC would be more accurate. I have heard these terms in use by people who were experimenting with their gender presentation.

I do not submit to anyone's tyranny.

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erinaceus · 03/07/2017 02:40

(AMAB and AFAB, not AMAB and AFAB.)

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erinaceus · 03/07/2017 02:40

Oh shit too late to be posting in Feminism Chat.

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SylviaPoe · 03/07/2017 02:43

What does AMAC mean?

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erinaceus · 03/07/2017 02:44

C for conception

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Datun · 03/07/2017 07:48

I'm not sure, in terms of offence, it matters what names you use. The goalposts change all the time.

Transwomen don't like MtT now. 'Trans women' (with a gap) or trans girl (even when they're middle aged) is currently the preferred name, I believe.

Also CAMAB (coercively assigned male at birth).

Or just 'women'. Until being trans needs to be leveraged, of course.

I quite like TIF and TIM because it acknowledges transition, whilst maintaining the birth six.

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BigDeskBob · 03/07/2017 08:09

There are reddit subs, used by both trans and women, who use the terms 'trans natal male' and 'trans natal female'.

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TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 03/07/2017 08:13

AMAC is ridiculous. At conception, the embryo is genetically male or female (sex) and hasn't yet been assigned anything. Assignation suggests there's a judgement being made by a person, who might get it wrong. I thought transgenderism was to do with the sex not matching the preferred gender - when an embryo is formed, it has no gender, only sex.

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Scrumplestiltskin · 03/07/2017 08:21

I frequent a reddit debate sub that uses trans natal male and trans natal female, BigDeskBob, and although it's somewhat irritating to have to include the "natal" (since you can't actually change sex,) it is very clear. And while trans people may not like it, they can't deny it's accurate and neutral.
I'm okay with MtT and FtT, especially in female spaces, but I understand why trans people may dislike the terms.
AFAB and AMAB were actually appropriated from the intersex community, who are the only ones who can be "assigned", and many of them don't like trans people using the terms.
I use "they" pronouns for trans people if trying to be thoughtful and considerate of gender critical allies who are trans, and use the pronouns of their sex if talking about trans people in general.
Being addressed as one's natal sex is not dehumanising unless you think that sex is inhuman.

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Beachcomber · 03/07/2017 08:23

MTT is a term that feminists started to use because men who claim they are women began to appropriate our identity and attack our rights.

It is a form of resistance - deliberately using language that does not refer to these males as "female" or "women" in any way.

Lots of women began to notice about 15 or so years ago that the trans movement was taking a mile when given an inch. Just look at the insidious use of "trans woman" as a creeping replacement of "transwoman". That seemingly insignificant space bolsters the idea that there are different types of woman of which males are one with the equivalent legitimacy of "biological women".

The term MTT is dehumanizing unfortunately - but not because feminists desire to dehumanize transwomen. It is dehumanizing because the trans movement and ideology are dehumanizing and therefore by consequence accurate language describing what the process of transition does to a person is inevitably dehumanizing.

Language is important - it is used to manipulate how we think and how we perceive and describe our world. Which is why the trans movement cares so much about it. And why feminists resist calling men women.

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