"Don't walk home alone"

[NoLoveofMine]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-40399103

Ridiculous, victim blaming advice to women and girls anyway but this shows yet again how pointless it is to suggest.

[VestalVirgin]

I am shocked by the fact that there were so many passersby, and no one intervened before the rape.

I tend to feel safe in busy areas, because I count on people helping me, and rapists being discouraged by the presence of other people.

Apparently I have been naive.

[NoLoveofMine]

That's a good point Vestal. I suppose without knowing the details, it could have looked innocent at first to anyone passing by. It is thoroughly chilling that these two attackers felt confident in approaching the women and carrying out such a crime with both of them there and in a busy city centre. Horrific.

[VestalVirgin]

Could have been a case of other people not seeing the rape because they were so accustomed to men being pushy and coercive that it looked like "Oh, hey, she's having a fight with her boyfriend", or ... whatever, no idea.

Putting the onus on men to prevent other men from raping when they see it happen would be a first step in the right direction.

I would have thought that went without saying, but apparently it doesn't.

(I found it very telling that in this one case where an American man raped an unconscious girl and even photographed her, it was two Swedish men who noticed and stopped him. Could be coincidence, but could also be Americans considering this so normal they didn't even notice)

[NoLoveofMine]

I recall that case Vestal - that was Brock Turner I think. It was horrendous, as were some of the comments made in his defence. So telling on how he and many others saw women and girls. The piece written by the woman he attacked afterwards was excellent, though.

Two men did intervene when this attack was going on it seems so their actions are to be commended; I very much hope these attackers are caught and brought to justice.

[RebelRogue]

Every time I hear that bullshit it remind me of someone I knew. It was drummed into us not to walk at night,not to walk home alone. A friend insisted on walking her,he reiterated the "advice" and how it would be unsafe and stupid to walk home alone. So he did walk her home,where he proceeded to rape her for hours. The cherry on the fucked up cake was that then some people did an 180 and told her " well you took him home with you,what did you expect?"

Damned if you do,damned if you don't...and it's always the victim's fault.

[moutonfou]

As I see it, walking alone late at night is like leaving your car door unlocked.

If your car was to be burgled, it would not be your fault. It would be the fault of the piece of who thought it was okay to violate others' property.

Not walking alone at night, not getting black out drunk, and keeping drinks under close supervision, are precautions that a woman can take given we know that extremely unpleasant men sadly exist.

However that never means that if one of those precautions wasn't taken, the woman is at any fault. The blame is 100% with the man who thinks its okay to touch a woman without her consent.

How this can continually be misunderstood I'll never understand.

[birdsdestiny]

I know that my vagina is exactly the same as a car.

[moutonfou]

birdsdestiny the point is a crime is a crime. Blame is with the criminal. Yes there are precautions you can take against any crime, but the only person at fault is the criminal. Which seems to be all too often misunderstood when it comes to attacks on women.

[RebelRogue]

I'm uncomfortable linking vaginas or women's bodies in general with "property". That's how rapists tend to view it. Not just that,but you can't just leave them at home,lock them up,insure them,get another if totalled .

[NoLoveofMine]

That's horrendous RebelRogue and shows very well how women and girls are blamed and judged no matter what we do. As always the onus is placed on women to avoid rape (which is impossible to ensure) and often blamed with attackers excused if it happens.

[NoLoveofMine]

It's impossible to never walk home alone at night anyway. Not every woman can afford to take a taxi every single time she walks home and if a friend walks her home, who walks that friend home? Also, after dark is before 5pm in the winter, not to mention that even attacks of this nature often happen in daylight. This case also shows again how ridiculous and victim blaming such advice is anyway seeing as these two women were together.

[FirstShinyRobe]

moutonfou she wasn't on her own...

I'll never understand how folks like you can talk about keeping yourself safe out of one side of your mouth and use the other to 100% blame the attacker. If you truly thought the latter, the former is redundant.

[gillybeanz]

You are totally right, there were two women together, so they were not alone. It would have been busy in this area and the men must have been very confident to think they could get away with it.

However, a young woman (18) was murdered in our town recently.
She was walking home from school on her own.

I tell my dd not to walk alone the same as I told my ds x 2 not to walk alone.

[MercuryMadness]

Sorry, where and who says do not walk home alone?

The article says the following:

Image copyright
GOOGLE
Image caption
Police said two passers-by intervened and the attackers ran off
A woman has been raped and her friend sexually assaulted by two men, during a night out.
The 18-year-olds were attacked on Granby Row, in Manchester city centre, at about 02:15 BST.
Police said the offenders, believed to be in their 20s, approached the victims on Chorlton Street , walked with them and then assaulted them.
Police said two passers-by intervened and the attackers ran off. Detectives are urging witnesses to come forward.
Det Sgt Clare Smith, of Greater Manchester Police, said the victims were "understandably left extremely distressed" by the "disturbing" attack.
"This happened following a busy Saturday night in Manchester and it is possible that there could have been a number of people in the nearby area at the time that may hold key information," she said.
"I would like to pay tribute to the two men who spotted what was happening and quickly intervened."

[NoLoveofMine]

MercuryMadness sorry for not being clear - I wasn't insinuating the reporting on this said it, more something which is often said.

[gillybeanz]

A young girl (8) was raped by a teen too.
I know we can't lock our daughters up, nor would I like to have this conversation with an 8 year old.

Surely, it's wise to inform that there are dangers to being on your own?

[AssassinatedBeauty]

gilly logically then no woman should walk alone anywhere at any time, given that attacks can happen in the daytime. How does that work practically?

[NoLoveofMine]

gillybeanz I know of both of those horrendous incidents. I'm not sure what you're suggesting though - how can anyone always avoid being alone outside? Also this is in the context of this case - not the only one of this nature when a woman hasn't been alone anyway.

[MercuryMadness]

Sorry notloveofmine I was being too literal. Of course I have heard similar.

[VestalVirgin]

Surely, it's wise to inform that there are dangers to being on your own?

Not if that is the only info you give an 8 year old. She might walk with a rapist to not be alone ...

The fact is, a girl or woman on her own is perfectly safe from rape. Only if a rapist is present is she in danger.

You will have to tell girls that males rape, plainly and honestly, and let them make their own decision based on that.
I know it is not a nice thing to have to talk about with an 8 year old, but I see no alternative. Just saying ominous things about male strangers will not keep a child safe from men she knows.

[moutonfou]

FirstShinyRobe I fear I have been misunderstood - but I am also open to admitting I am always learning so I will post one last message and then stick to observing the thread and hope to learn from it.

I believe it is totally possible to abhor victim blaming, and yet still talk about precautions, because the fact is, attackers exist. They shouldn't exist - women shouldn't have to take any precautions at all. Women should be able to take a stroll down a darkened alley in the middle of the night if they want to without any fear. But the fact is, whilst unpleasant men exist, we can't. The blame is 100% with the attackers, and judges telling women what they 'should' or 'shouldnt' have done is abhorrent - but that still doesn't make us safe alone at night. The sad truth is that until society finds a way to somehow prevent certain men becoming wrong in the head, we have to exercise personal vigilance and vigilance on behalf of others. And as this case highlights, sometimes even that isn't enough

[RebelRogue]

The thing is women of any race,age,faith etc get raped everyday.
Rapists are progressive like that, they don't discriminate.
Certain groups are more at risk,but there's no group of no risk.

[VestalVirgin]

gilly logically then no woman should walk alone anywhere at any time, given that attacks can happen in the daytime. How does that work practically?

To be really safe, women would have to walk in armed groups of at least five women, perhaps more.

Not really practical, even if you live together with so many women and therefore can walk home together.

[VestalVirgin]

Though I have to say, the only hen do I ever attended in my life, I never felt safer. Walking the streets in a group of ten women, it was really a powerful feeling.

[gillybeanz]

I thought you were saying that we shouldn't warn our children and women about walking home alone.
Of course there will be times when you are on your own and it's unavoidable, hence I said you can't lock our daughters up, You have to live your life.
I struggle to see how warning people about certain scenarios is victim blaming.