Thoughts?

[joolspoon]

The other day I was in a pub and for the toilet door signs there was cartoons drawn on which vaguely resembled a person on each door with thought bubbles. The male toilet the thought bubble said football and the female toilet said shopping.
I came back tommy table and said "have you seen the doors it's awful, I think about things other than shooing, in fact I hate shopping". My male friend said abruptly and annoyed "I don't like football but I wouldn't get upset about it" then my female friend sniggered. My DP said oh it's only a joke.
But I felt like I was told to shut up as it didn't affect the male therefore you female mustn't be upset by it or even make it an issue.
I think I get so downtrodden by friends surrounding my thoughts on feminism.
Am I being hypersensitive to equality? Thoughts please?

[joolspoon]

Sorry typos

[joolspoon]

Maybe this isn't a feminist issue, maybe a friends one

[AssassinatedBeauty]

I'd have gone in the one marked football myself, and seen if anyone had an issue with it. It is stupid, based on a ridiculous sexist stereotype. But I'm not surprised your male friend minimised it and shut you down.

[NoLoveofMine]

I would think the pub in question is risible and not want to give it my custom. It's lamentable they think this is at all witty. I concur with your thoughts on it and am sorry your friends don't support your feminism - that must be incredibly frustrating. I definitely don't think you're hypersensitive to equality (or that you can be)!

[DJBaggySmalls]

I don't think you're being hypersensitive. There's a difference between labelled as people who shop and people who play sports. I feel like I'm going back in time.

[joolspoon]

Luckily my sisters do, which is great. But then I get told I'm into feminism as I was brought up in female household. Honestly 😡

[LonginesPrime]

OP, I find it offensive too and would probably have spoken to the manager emailed them afterwards to express my view, as they probably think its a 'fun' way to do something original. If I were more twitter-savvy, I'd consider tweeting about it

I felt like I was told to shut up as it didn't affect the male

Yep. This is what we're up against, in respect of so many issues.

I agree with you that it's more of a friend problem too. How lovely for your friend that he's sufficiently privileged to let sexist stereotypes wash over him without damaging his sense of self or making him question his value within society.

My actual friends are used to my calling out their privilege (and they've done the same to me, on occasion). I also come across people who minimise my experiences and dismiss me as a ranty feminist, but whilst I might have a little debate with them in the pub after work because I feel their views and practices should be challenged (nothing like a drunk ranty feminist..), I wouldn't gravitate towards them in my proper leisure time as they're just not my people.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

How lovely for your friend that he's sufficiently privileged to let sexist stereotypes wash over him without damaging his sense of self or making him question his value within society

Both signs are stupid and naff and the fact it even has them makes it sound the sort of pub I wouldn't have been in in the first place , far less go back to. But it would certainly not damage my sense of self worth or question my value in society. It's a stupid sign put up by a stupid person - it's that person whose worth is questionable.

[deydododatdodontdeydo]

But I felt like I was told to shut up as it didn't affect the male

But it did affect the male, he just wasn't bothered by it.
To be honest, I think it would be a pretty even split of women who were or weren't bothered by the shopping one and men who were or weren't bothered by the football one.
It sounds like your female friend wasn't at all bothered either.
I agree they are naff and stupid.

[ChipsForSupper]

It doesn't matter if other people think it's just naff or unimportant or just a joke or whatever - this isn't about other people, it's about you. You were disgruntled and annoyed about something that is important to you and your friends did not 'get it' or feel empathy for you. Added to that, sexism and gender stereotyping are not a minor issue so it's emotionally upsetting that your friends won't recognise your right to feel passionately about something.

The argument that feminism and equality for women is important but some aspects of discrimination/gender stereotyping are simply too minor to worry about is flawed. Small things add up.

[dinocandle]

I would've been grateful that they weren't gender neutral.
The ones at work have gone gender neutral so the women use the disabled toilets whilst the men use the other two.

[fruitlovingmonkey]

Next time you go to the pub can you replace them with cartoon drawings of a vulva and penis?
That will teach them for endorsing stereotypes.
Although I agree that it's better to have twee, sexist cartoons than gender neutral loos.

[EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans]

That's actually a perfect example of gender-specific toilets isn't it? Stereotypes and feelz over biology.

[NoLoveofMine]

That's actually a perfect example of gender-specific toilets isn't it? Stereotypes and feelz over biology.

Indeed. Suggests liking football or shopping is more inherent in determining whether you're a woman or man than biology.

I'm aware it's "just" a couple of signs on toilets which they'll not have given a second thought but this kind of lazy thinking feeds into stereotyping.

[Datun]

I'm aware it's "just" a couple of signs on toilets which they'll not have given a second thought but this kind of lazy thinking feeds into stereotyping.

What annoys me is that if you make a fuss about this sort of thing people will roll their eyes and call you a feminazi. I can just see it.

No, it wouldn't have damaged my sense of self worth, but it would have pissed me off. Partly because of what it says, but more because it's not considered something we should mind. Too trivial. Get a grip/life.

Because there is an entire industry out there churning out these signs. An entire workforce. A CEO. A set of accountants. There is a meeting around a table with people deciding what would be the best way of distinguishing between men and women.

What would it actually take for a significant proportion of them to say, you know what, I don't think this is a good idea? Even if the decision maker personally thinks it's trivial, no-one had a good enough argument to make him think differently.

It's not just about a bloody sign.

[NoLoveofMine]

It's not just about a bloody sign.

I hope it didn't seem as if I was suggesting it was as I concur. I meant as I know some (many) would dismiss it and as you say belittle you for having an issue with it. Similar to the other thread someone started yesterday about the Parent Teacher Association's casually sexist post on Facebook, a few responses were complaining about her having the temerity to highlight it.

As you say this is ostensibly minor but damaging stereotyping which feeds into the notion that "gender" is innate.

[DJBaggySmalls]

Casual sexism is a symptom.

[NoLoveofMine]

I'm not sure if I'm phrasing things incorrectly or coming across as if I don't think these things matter because that's the complete opposite of what I think. I don't mean "casual sexism" to sound as if it's minor.

[Datun]

NoLoveofMine

No, sorry, my post wasn't directed at you. I highlighted your bit, but wasn't really addressing your overall sentiment. I know you don't think it's trivial or casual.

[Datun]

The thing is, yes it isn't a major thing, but it is symptomatic. It's just more of the same.

[NoLoveofMine]

Thanks Datun, was worried it seemed I was playing it down.

The minor things all feed into the overall picture, which is major.

[LonginesPrime]

Because there is an entire industry out there churning out these signs. An entire workforce. A CEO. A set of accountants. There is a meeting around a table with people deciding what would be the best way of distinguishing between men and women.

Whilst I agree there are huge companies and PR firms that get this stuff wrong regularly, I would hope that this is an instance of a sole trader or tiny business making the signs and the pub landlord seeing them and thinking 'ooh, they're different' without a thought for sexism, stereotyping or PR disasters as it's not even on their radar.

[Datun]

LonginesPrime

Maybe. But I've seen similar signs in lots of other pubs. Even things like Men's to the Left because Women are always Right. Still annoying.

A well known bar in Jermyn Street has women's mouths as the urinals.

I don't think it's confined to very few places.

[NoLoveofMine]

A well known bar in Jermyn Street has women's mouths as the urinals.

That's horrendous. Such an expression of misogyny in my opinion.