Talk

Advanced search

Another trans question......

(47 Posts)
BertrandRussell Mon 08-May-17 10:03:44

Does anyone know who was the first person to put forward the "self identifying" idea and when?

patodp Mon 08-May-17 10:16:52

Surely it came from a community and not a single person.

The liberal left has not helped itself with competitive victimisation "who is the most oppressed and victimised today" nonsense.

It's grown up in response to this pandering to individuals claiming hurt feelings and oppression simultaneously alongside the neoliberal philosophies that anything can be bought, even your own born sex, and individualism trumps everything.

BertrandRussell Mon 08-May-17 10:31:06

I don't think it can have just come from the community.how did it get such traction?

ChocChocPorridge Mon 08-May-17 10:43:26

Quietly, and as secretly as as they can. No, I'm not being paranoid - this is straight from the horses mouth :
gendertrender

“We have to acknowledge that we have largely achieved our successes by flying under the radar”, (then) Transgender Law Center Director Masen Davis stated eighteen months ago, “It is a secret at Transgender Law Center and I’ll ‘come out’ today. We do a lot, really quietly. We have made some of our biggest gains: that nobody has noticed.

She links to a video that quote comes from (near the end - about 8 minutes)

I'm not denying it's a clever tactic. Very politically savvy.

Datun Mon 08-May-17 10:57:29

I don't know where it started. I'll be interested if anyone does, though.

And I don't really understand it from a government's point of view. Legally changing your sex is not a minefield.

I do know that treatment, and I'm assuming a legal change of sex, was not considered suitable or appropriate for people identifying as trans on the basis of AGP.

So any gatekeeping came under pressure to be dismantled. Along with a denial that AGP existed.

It's mostly autogynephiles who stick to the I've always been a woman narrative and lose their rag when questioned. And they are the ones complaining the loudest and are anti women.

Being able to legally change sex was sanctioned in 2004. Which then legitimised trans as a movement.

I should imagine every autogynephile in the country started rubbing their hands in glee and saw self identification as something they could promote which would serve the dual purpose of benefiting them and, at the same time, be lauded for a spot of virtue signalling.

patodp Mon 08-May-17 11:09:50

I don't think the tiny trans "community" did anything apart from try to live their life, but vocal trans activists in high places are very adept at lobbying those who make decisions and encouraging hurling abuse and no platforming those which critique the concept. (I didn't mean specifically the T community).

Other communities like MSN offices, neoliberal ideologists, angst ridden adolescents, the NUS, and lefty liberal political groups have helped it along.

It's a natural evolution from the ideology that you can change your sex. This idea has been embraced by so many factions, I don't think they're letting go easily.

I remember emailing my MP about Maria Millers proposal, and her blind acceptance that we all need to be "inclusive" with no critical thought was a surprise.

I see it backfiring spectacularly then everyone will wake up. Sorry, no idea who specifically started the idea though! Maybe Danielle Muscato?

Datun Mon 08-May-17 11:20:30

patodp

I don't think the tiny trans "community" did anything apart from try to live their life

I agree with that. There was a transwoman on here a few months ago who had been living as a woman since the 1970s. She said she was completely taken by surprise when she was told she could legally change sex ten or so years ago. She was pleased, but surprised.

She hadn't been aware of any campaigning. So I'm assuming, it was thought to be something that would remain only applicable to a handful of people, and was designed to help ease their way through life presenting as the opposite sex.

And yes it is backfiring spectacularly. There have been a whole load of assumptions made by society, with no foundation in science or reality. Which is now coming to light.

BertrandRussell Mon 08-May-17 14:03:41

I'm very old. I've been aware all my life of transgender people. There was always gossip about people going to Tunisia and Egypt for surgery, and of people like Jan Morris who lived quietly as women. And of women, usually lesbians, who certainly dressed as men- they appear in fiction. Quaint Irene and Stephen Gordon are the examples that came immediately to mind. So who wrote what where to precipitate the current situation ?

GoldStars3 Mon 08-May-17 14:10:16

What LGB groups started tacking on the T, and when?

That's where the damage was done, I think. If transgenderism were not understood in conventional wisdom as being like a special kind of gay, it's much more likely that as appropriation became politically incorrect, appropriating womanhood might have been seen in that light.

BertrandRussell Mon 08-May-17 14:18:23

I am also old enough to remember when feminists got a bit over excited about joining forces with gay men. Incidentally in the process pushing lesbians down the pecking order......

BertrandRussell Mon 08-May-17 14:20:05

I suppose among other things I'm asking cui bono? Who, for example, makes money out of gender reassignment?

splendide Mon 08-May-17 14:25:57

I don't think I completely understand your question.

Are you asking when people first started saying/ believing that they actually were a woman as opposed to feminine dressing and presenting or having surgery?

BMacklin Mon 08-May-17 14:34:53

No idea but good question. Maybe as self identification is already law n America could it be from someone (individual or group) there? Then it's spread under the radar through the Internet? Because you have to actually go looking for it and most people with their busy lives wouldn't connect with it.

Elendon Mon 08-May-17 15:19:56

And of women, usually lesbians, who certainly dressed as men- they appear in fiction.

Good grief. This has nothing whatsoever to do with transgender as we know it now. When was the fiction written? I'm not in my halcyon days, and yet I get it. Age is not a barrier to intelligence.

Men could be seen in fiction and acting as being transgender because they played female roles, for example as in Shakespeare's plays - but that's because women were not allowed such roles. Women were not allowed to do many things beyond the home until the late 18thC. If you did go on the stage as a woman to act you were no better than a prostitute, but men acting as women at that time were given plaudits.

What you need to ask is what males wanted to be women for all their lives after they lived a life as a male and then decided to become female in their late fifties/sixties.

BertrandRussell Mon 08-May-17 15:32:51

"And of women, usually lesbians, who certainly dressed as men- they appear in fiction.

Good grief. This has nothing whatsoever to do with transgender as we know it now. When was the fiction written? I'm not in my halcyon days, and yet I get it. Age is not a barrier to intelligence."

It does in your case appear to be a barrier to good manners.

BMacklin Mon 08-May-17 15:33:24

* Who, for example, makes money out of gender reassignment?*

The surgeons.

BertrandRussell Mon 08-May-17 15:34:40

"What you need to ask is what males wanted to be women for all their lives after they lived a life as a male and then decided to become female in their late fifties/sixties."

Are there words missing from this sentence?

Datun Mon 08-May-17 15:48:24

I've been having a quick search on google and I've come across The Beaumont Society. They've been around since 1966 and have been instrumental in submitting information to the government for some time.

They include transvestism and fetishes under transgenderism.

www.beaumontsociety.org.uk/regional-organisers/

www.beaumontsociety.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/SubmissiontoCommons.pdf

BMacklin Mon 08-May-17 16:07:16

Datun this sentence under "aims" s a bit scary:

"Promote and assist the study of gender differences."

Promote gender differences?

Elendon Mon 08-May-17 16:11:43

Bertrand Ha! Ha! a barrier to good manners Really?

I've had enough of being good and mannerly. I'm all for pulling barriers to women down.

Elendon Mon 08-May-17 16:13:39

Promote and assist would indicate getting money. Datun. How do these organisations exist?

BertrandRussell Mon 08-May-17 16:22:21

"I'm all for pulling barriers to women down."
Yep- me too. Which barriers are you talking about?

Elendon Mon 08-May-17 16:23:48

The barriers to women being women without men interfering as to how they should do it. Look up your Shakespeare.

Elendon Mon 08-May-17 16:25:05

If you too are happy to pull barriers for women down too Bertrand, then what would those barriers be?

BertrandRussell Mon 08-May-17 16:25:23

So why are you shouting at me about it????

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, watch threads, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now »

Already registered? Log in with: