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Do you think some of the driver for "a woman is anyone who says they are a woman" is to do with bad science teaching in the US?

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QuentinSummers Fri 07-Apr-17 11:26:01

Just reading this thread on Reddit and loads of the posts are very scientifically naive. I can't decide if posters are being disingenuous or are just very uneducated about basic science.
It got me wondering whether the American thing of teaching creationism as equally valid a theory as evolution has generally undermined science and critical thinking.

QuentinSummers Fri 07-Apr-17 11:26:12

www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/63vil5/what_does_woman_mean/

BeyondUser24601 Fri 07-Apr-17 11:55:39

I was wondering something similar recently. Anecdata of course, but I have noticed a large chunk of people who are having/on the side of gender issues seem to have been brought up in a highly religious household - where they could have (speculation!) been brought up to believe that a literal soul is popped into their body, leading to an "explanation" of born in the wrong body.

The whole "everyone starts out female" drives me loopy, especially!

TinyRick Fri 07-Apr-17 12:04:24

Only started to read the top comment thread. Both (the op and the Aussie) were trying to sound smarter than the other. The Aussie being the most incomprehensible and irritating. They call themselves a 'feminist'?!

TinyRick Fri 07-Apr-17 12:10:04

I tried to read it all but I got bored

QuentinSummers Fri 07-Apr-17 12:21:12

Yeah it is boring! I just found it interesting that people could seriously post "a dinosaur is a dinosaur because it just is a dinosaur" without giving it any deeper thought

SomeDyke Fri 07-Apr-17 12:30:56

" "a dinosaur is a dinosaur because it just is a dinosaur"

........except when it's a bird. Tell 'em birds are dinosaurs, that'll really confuse them!

I was thinking about species the other day as well (the fact that species are not totally clear cut, whereas sex is much more so. Of course, the true creationists think of species as fixed and immutable, or try to introduce daft new categories like 'types' as I recall. But their basic premise is what Noah took on the ark, that was it. A bit of minor wiggling since then perhaps, if they can admit the ark might have to have been unfeasibly large to be built by a backyard hobbyist carpenter, even with the assistance of a whole horde of sons......

But not hard to see how someone who can say species are fixed and immutable, and humans are totally different, grandpaw wasn't a monkey, no sirree............can see humans as having a special internal human thing that is more than just biology. Hence logically, if a biological person has a female soul in a seemingly male body...........

And of course, Iran has a similar opinion!

QuentinSummers Fri 07-Apr-17 12:32:52

Oh yeah good point about fixed species, I had forgotten that gem. Although people on that thread seem confused about what a species is and think that male/female are species hmm

TinyRick Fri 07-Apr-17 12:33:41

Sorry Quentin wasn't undermining the reason you posted it.

But yes, I think, especially in the US there was/is this tendancy to use gender instead of sex (see 'gender reveal parties') as I guess the word sex is more confronting and a hush word in the more religious/conservative households and states. And now we have this whole confusion over the word and what it actually means.

noeffingidea Fri 07-Apr-17 12:34:20

I don't know. I've noticed it in the UK as well, where virtually everyone does basic biology to GCSE level.
On another forum I post on I've noticed some posters who generally come across as quite intelligent, and with opinions that I would otherwise respect, come out with this line.
I don't really understand it. They seem to have a blind spot about this.
I did get accused of being a horrible person once for stating biological facts, however I'm certainly not the only one.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans Fri 07-Apr-17 12:34:43

* Anecdata of course, but I have noticed a large chunk of people who are having/on the side of gender issues seem to have been brought up in a highly religious household - where they could have (speculation!) been brought up to believe that a literal soul is popped into their body, leading to an "explanation" of born in the wrong body.*

That would also fit the group who think being trans / having a trans child is more acceptable than being gay / having a gay child.

QuentinSummers Fri 07-Apr-17 12:36:14

No need for apologies! I wasn't expecting anyone to read all the tedious navel gazing smile just a couple of comments surprised me and made me wonder how people could be so ill informed and almost....uncurious. writing off the whole biological classification system with "because they are" is odd

CharlieSierra Fri 07-Apr-17 12:40:01

what a load of navel gazing bollocks!

SSR24479 Fri 07-Apr-17 12:40:18

Do you class people with chromosome abnormalities as 'not real men/women' too? Or just when it suits you?

TinyRick Fri 07-Apr-17 12:43:37

Considering chromosomal obnormalities are extremely rare AND they have publically said not to be lumped in with the Trans movement...I think that's an irrelevant question.

SSR24479 Fri 07-Apr-17 12:49:28

Considering chromosomal obnormalities are extremely rare AND they have publically said not to be lumped in with the Trans movement...I think that's an irrelevant question.

They're not being lumped in with the trans movement? I'm saying that the 'chromosomes define gender' argument isn't a good one.

Datun Fri 07-Apr-17 12:49:57

Intersex people have repeatedly asked not to be used to endorse the trans-ideology. They are completely separate, with different issues and do not appreciate the appropriation. Funny that.

CharlieSierra Fri 07-Apr-17 12:51:40

SSR24479 you are the only poster on the thread who has mentioned real men/women, but since you have, what's your definition?

BeyondUser24601 Fri 07-Apr-17 12:52:01

Sex, ssr.

Chromosomes define sex

TinyRick Fri 07-Apr-17 12:52:56

I'm saying that the 'chromosomes define gender' argument isn't a good one

It's a scientific one.

Oswin Fri 07-Apr-17 12:53:36

Ssr. It's sex not gender.

Floggingmolly Fri 07-Apr-17 12:54:21

Why is it always about bloody men wanting to be women? Why can't anybody that fancies it be a man?

SSR24479 Fri 07-Apr-17 12:55:43

*Sex, ssr.

Chromosomes define sex*

Turner syndrome? Klinefelter syndrome? Androgen insensitivity?

SSR24479 Fri 07-Apr-17 12:56:45

Why is it always about bloody men wanting to be women? Why can't anybody that fancies it be a man?

They do and they can, I'm right here.

People only focus on MtF's because they like to call them rapists and perverts.

BeyondUser24601 Fri 07-Apr-17 12:59:58

If you have just x, regardless of how many, you are genetically female.

If you have one or more y, regardless of how many, you are genetically male.

Anything but XX or XY is "intersex", but they still aren't actually a third sex. It's not hard.

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