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Men being raped by women

(32 Posts)
Mamagin Sun 26-Mar-17 15:00:59

This has just come up on my Facebook feed.
https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/the-hidden-epidemic-of-men-who-are-raped-by-women?utm_source=vicefbanz&utm_campaign=global
Via insufferably intolerant science nerd - I'm a bit dumbstruck at the concept that females are violating men in such huge numbers. I can't seem to link to the Facebook page, but the comments appear to agree that there are many such women out there. WTF?

Gingernaut Sun 26-Mar-17 15:13:24

broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/the-hidden-epidemic-of-men-who-are-raped-by-women?utm_source=vicefbanz&utm_campaign=global

The survey is American.

The survey makes no distinction between cis- and trans- women.

The term rape in this article also includes "made to penetrate".

In other words, men were forced to penetrate another person.

Here, in this country, rape is defined as being penetrated with a penis, so the definition of the offence differs.

The somewhat confused article also goes on to describe female victims of female sexual assaults. Behind bars.

Women can be sexual abusers. We knew this. How prevalent they actually are is anyone's guess.

This article doesn't clarify matters.

Mamagin Sun 26-Mar-17 15:16:40

Thanks for putting the link in, Gingernaut.
Even if you define as sexual abuse, I wouldn't have thought it equalled male on female abuse.

picklemepopcorn Sun 26-Mar-17 15:20:18

Rape in the use includes digital penetration as well, I believe.

Gingernaut Sun 26-Mar-17 15:26:18

They were very selective with their statistics and a lot of the evidence in the article was anecdotal.

I would like to see a 'proper' survey done, with comparisons made with male offenders, a break down in cis- and trans- female offenders and "conspiracy to" offences listed as well.

There is no doubt there are 'cis-female' offenders, but they are incapable of rape as defined in British law (although capable of sexual assault by penetrating with an object) and are more than capable of luring and grooming victims for rape by others and sex trafficking.

I am also thinking of women like Vanessa George who were part of child sex abuse 'gangs'.

Tartle Sun 26-Mar-17 15:29:10

So it includes being made to penetrate someone and the proportion of cases in which the person whom they are being made to penetrate is a woman but it is not clear to me that the person who is doing the making and the person who is being penetrated are the same? I'm thinking about gang scenarios etc.

This is an area that needs more and better research I'm sure as with all areas of sexual assault.

gamerchick Sun 26-Mar-17 15:32:55

Why the cis? It's woman or trans woman. People know the difference.

Gets right on my tit ends.

Gingernaut Sun 26-Mar-17 15:37:58

Yeah, I know the difference and you know the difference, but now the transvestites are now lumped in amongst all female offenders, those who compile the statistics don't differentiate and we have 'women' who are capable of rape as it's legally defined.

Dervel Sun 26-Mar-17 15:56:55

Thanks for that link, although I think the way the article is written is unhelpful. Although it is buried in the article one of the main issues is that there simply isn't the data points or research done to then go on and assert what the piece goes on to state.

I am a man and have been a victim of sexual abuse from a woman, I've only come across two other men that have been. One of them is a lifelong friend who only confided it to me after me talking earnestly about my own experience, so I can well believe there may be more than I am aware of given men's reticence to talk about such things. I have however sadly lost count years ago of the number of women in my life who have reported sexual victimisation of some kind.

The thing that pisses me off about that article and others of its ilk is that it's clickbait designed to set everyone against one another. Having been a victim myself I don't like how all that article will be used for is as a stick to beat women with. Nobody is actually going to advocate doing more research into the issues or roll their sleeves up and actually advocate for male victims. All it will be used for is to tell women to shut up when they talk about rape.

As a victim my empathy is always with the victims, so if we're going to talk about male victims fine, but not in a way that in anyway minimises or takes away from female victims. Personally I'd like every rapist and abuser safely tucked away in prison until the end of time, and I am not a big fan of discussions that are designed to obsfucate and obscure away from getting that done.

In conclusion more research needs to be done before the scale of the problem of female abusers can be intelligently discussed. That is the only thing that can be realistically advocated for right now.

user1490125033 Sun 26-Mar-17 16:16:43

I am also thinking of women like Vanessa George who were part of child sex abuse 'gangs'.

Yes, with two other women and a man I recall. It's hard to divie up responsibility in those cases.

This panorama doc is worth watching. Be warned: very upsetting.

There's two parts.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vi1WvBukfk

www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0uWIY2Tm1E

user1490125033 Sun 26-Mar-17 16:42:04

Also, further to Dervel's point, I accept that these cases can be used as a 'stick' to beat feminism...but on what basis? When you think about it, why would the fact of female perverts in any way invalidate a critique of male dominance?

I don't recall feminists ever suggesting that individual women can't be sick evil fucks too; just that we live in a male dominated society where men believe that they have a natural mandate to sick evil fuckery in order to oppress the female sex.

The existence of female paedos or anything else is not, in my view, a theoretical problem for feminism. Why would it be? Does the fact that black people do evil, oppressive stuff too mean that racism is ok?

QuentinSummers Sun 26-Mar-17 17:07:24

Yes I agree whole heartedly with Dervel.
Luckily for us we have the crime survey. In 2014 0.5% of men and 2% of women reported being victims of sexual assault in the previous year. No information on the sex of offenders but this can probably be inferred from the vastly higher number of men in prison for sex crimes.
Interestingly the crime survey asked about child sex abuse last year and found a similar ratio of genders affected
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/04/one-in-14-people-england-wales-sexually-abused-childhood-survey

QuentinSummers Sun 26-Mar-17 17:09:36

overview-of-sexual-offending-in-england-and-wales

It's quite interesting actually that offenders sex isn't really mentioned. I wonder why?

QuentinSummers Sun 26-Mar-17 17:09:57

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/an-overview-of-sexual-offending-in-england-and-wales

Mamagin Sun 26-Mar-17 17:40:38

I agree that women can be, and have been, just as evil. It was the​ assumption that the numbers were equal.

user1490125033 Sun 26-Mar-17 18:21:38

Everyone knows the numbers aren't equal. You only have to take a look at Pornhub to see that it's largely women who are seen as rape meat.

But I don't think the numbers really matter, as weird as that sounds. Well...no of course they matter in that female perpetrated sex abuse should be better understood in order that we catch and bang up the fuckers so they don't destroy any kids lives - but the numbers don't matter politically. It does not matter how many female perps are out there - - it still wouldn't be any more justifiable for men to treat women like shit because they're women. Equally, no matter how many evil black people do bad things to good white people, racism is still not one iota more ok. It is not ok to treat someone as having less worth because of their gender or race irrespective of how individual members of that gender or race behave.

That is what feminism is about imo - not that women are kinder or nicer or incapable of being arseholes. Women are human beings.

QuentinSummers Sun 26-Mar-17 18:26:41

I think if women were sexually abusing children in large numbers we would know about it. I don't believe a stigma or a cover up would stop it coming out.
Similarly if women really were forcing large numbers of men to have unwanted sex, we would see women being prosecuted for that (Dervel I am not for one moment saying it doesn't happen flowers). Unless you believe it's easier for women to report rape than men to report serious sexual assault. Which given the woeful conviction rates and the fact many women don't report because of the system, seems unlikely.
I don't know. I believe women's are abusers, I don't believe there is a widespread systematic cover up of female abuse as this post implies.

WobblyLegs5 Sun 26-Mar-17 19:01:13

If you look on the Web site making daughters safe again it has links to some retrospective studies that look at rates of female peadophile. They are american/Canadian and ofcourse retrospective studies have flaws. Reported sex offenses are not the whole picture either though.

I am a woman who was abused by both men and women. It males me beyond mad that what happened to me goes so unseen bc of tw in the stats. There is so so little research on female sex offenders, and there needs to be more, bc it does happen more than reported. And has a different dynamic/pattern/reasons whatever you want to term it & studying that is part of what helps awareness, helps victim speak up. Although it's more common than reported figures suggest it's still nowhere near 50/50, but it is difficult to evuate unless more research is done. (The links section has research, & some studies carry from 60%of males who were sa reporting female offenders & 10% female to studies that show females male up 4% of peadophiles our there- clearly a handful of studies are not fact anymore than massively underreported sex crime stats are)

Making daughters safe again really is a great website, please go have a look to be better informed. Read all the links, & the survivors stories give a unique insight

Dervel Sun 26-Mar-17 19:41:16

I wouldn't be at all surprised if more actual research was done in this area, the numbers and scale of female abusers would astonish, but that be entirely down to my own personal subjective experience. I may well be wrong.

One other component that greatly concerns me is at the moment opening this particular can of worms will make women more vulnerable to rape/assault.

Consider this scenario: male rapist chooses his victim. Makes sure alcohol is involved. Commits the crime, then first thing afterwards trots himself down to the nearest police station after taking a few extra swigs of booze just in case. Makes an accusation of sexual assault himself.

1. Nets himself lifetime anonymity for his crime. Even if the real victim comes forward he can never be named.
2. Uses his own accusation to bully his victim into dropping hers.

Unfortunately giving too much credence to male victims like myself sleepwalks us right into that nightmare proposition.

The only way I can see this working is bringing male sexual violence against women and girls way way down first. Then maybe we can look at it in more detail once that's done. I certainly wouldn't want anything advocated in my name that put more people at risk. It sucks but that's just the way things are.

VestalVirgin Sun 26-Mar-17 20:40:25

When you think about it, why would the fact of female perverts in any way invalidate a critique of male dominance?

Because the misogynists would very much like to pretend that all men who commit violence against women are just random madmen and that there is no system behind it.

Just like I am sure many people in the US claim that white people are shot by the police, or imprisoned for petty crimes at just exactly the same rate as black people.

If it just a "some people are criminal" problem, and there's no system behind it, then nothing can be changed and they can continue doing things like they always did.

Unfortunately giving too much credence to male victims like myself sleepwalks us right into that nightmare proposition.

Sadly, that's likely - while there's still sexism, the fact that a woman's alcohol consumption is used against her, while a man's alcohol consumption is seen as excusing everything he does, would make this scenario a pretty sure bet for a male rapist.

Of course, if his sexual history were investigated, it would be likely found out that he has raped other women, but again, it is only women's past that's considered important.

QuentinSummers Sun 26-Mar-17 20:59:08

I looked at that website wobbly but most of the links are broken and there doesn't appear to be much research.
All I can find its lots of articles assuming that women sex offenders are a problem and little actual research.

WobblyLegs5 Sun 26-Mar-17 21:14:42

Links worked when I used them. I can't post links on my phone though.

WobblyLegs5 Sun 26-Mar-17 21:34:07

In the link that says female abuse links- takes you to a few other links, three of which have various studies quoted in them. & are clear that there limitations in the studies & they haven't been replicated. Which they won't be when there's no funding or acknowledgement of the problem. It's no where near 50/50 imo but significantly more than the teeny less than 2% stats that are quoted. I know several other survivors sexually abused by women (all our mothers) and males. None only abused by females. Way way more abused by only men. I know almost exclusively female survivors (irl) several who have DID- so more 'exteeme' end of things, though u am loath to compare. other than through work where I knew plenty of boys who had been abused (mostly by males) & with the teens I worked with a 11 yrold boy being abused by a 16 yrold girl was considered 'lucky' by peers which is part of why this is less documented within that grouping.

There will be no real research to establish the likelyhood of female sex offenders while tw are included in the stats. & no help for those of us abused by women.

The wounded healer journal forum is allways an interesting insight, a long long time since I've been there but when I did there was a substatial number of us who had been targeted by females also.

wrappedupinmyselflikeaspool Sun 26-Mar-17 21:49:28

Thanks Dervel I agree. I am also a survivor and I often find myself saying this when I am taking about it. I do some public speaking on the subject and also often one to one, as I wrote a book and so get a lot of contacts from people asking questions.

Men generally and male survivors specifically need ways of discussing and describing the male experience of sexual abuse and assault in ways that are not motivated by or primarily focussed on belittling feminists and introducing whataboutery to stories of women's experience. A reality based analysis is enormously important in all discussions of sexual violence.

I've shared panels with, for example a high profile male survivor of catholic clerical rape. So many differences between his experience and more. Equally, though I've never met one, a male survivor or female survivor of abuse by a female would have completely different things to say. there is room for all these stories.

What there is not room for is an ideologically motivated exaggeration of any given situation. Unfortunately women do not need to exaggerate about rape and sexual assault and under reporting is a big problem, I'm sure its as big a problem as it is for male victims of sexual abuse by females because of all the emails and letters and tweets I get from people who have not reported. I have never had a contact from a person who was abused by a woman. This doest mean it doesn't happen but it might indicate something about the frequency with which it happens perhaps.

I'm also very worried about statistics which now include trans women as female perpetrators because this will skew the statistics sharply. Unfortunately, whether people like to hear it or not, serial or repeat sex offenders, the type of people sometimes called predatory men, are likely to have a range of paraphilia and one of these can be cross dressing for an erotic charge. Whether this means they are "really" trans or not is impossible to say but it is a fact that must be faced and somethings that the prison and probation service are aware of and concerned about.

Finally I want to say that when I wrote my book there were no UK statistics that showed both the sex of the perpetrator and the sex of the victim with any reliability. I had to make my own notes and cross reference between tables and between sources to work it out. Karen Ingala Smith is helping to get the femicide figures more accurate but we desperately need better, detailed research in this.

However, though it was sometimes difficult to tell the sex of victims and perpetrators in crime statistics because gender neutral language such as intimate partner violence is used, it is abundantly clear that the scale and severity of violence committed by male perpetrators is a tsunami compared to the shallow stream of comparable female crime EVEN if we allow for underreporting. Both areas are underreported so even VAST underreporting on the part of male victims would be unlikely to affect the figures. For example, to my surprise I found that violence against the person was the most common female crime (I had expected theft) 81,410 females were arrested for this offence in 2011.

When you compare this with the 375, 317 males that were arrested, and consider that women make up half the population you can see a problem with trying to make out that violence is all equal. If we then compare the severity of the violence, so fatal violence for example, 210 suspects in homicides were male and 25 were female. 98.2 percent of all sexual offences were committed by males.

Refusing to face these facts helps no one.

user1490125033 Sun 26-Mar-17 22:36:49

All I can find its lots of articles assuming that women sex offenders are a problem and little actual research.

Erm, well they kind of are a problem if you've been abused by one. You don't need any research to demonstrate that.

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