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Preferred Pronouns

(26 Posts)
MercyMyJewels Sun 26-Mar-17 13:23:53

Interesting article on how using preferred pronouns harms women. I have been coming to this POV and this has accelerated the process

transwidow.wordpress.com/2016/06/27/10-things-youre-actually-saying-when-you-ignore-someones-gender-pronouns/

CharlieSierra Sun 26-Mar-17 13:34:42

Really well articulated article, thanks for sharing.

GahBuggerit Sun 26-Mar-17 13:49:28

Really good article, feel like linking to it every time someone clueless about the wider implications of calling a man "she" says "what harm does it do?"

Prawnofthepatriarchy Sun 26-Mar-17 17:49:02

I used not to see any problem with using preferred pronouns but over years my stance has changed, though I still often do to be polite. The issue as I see it is that transwomen interpret courtesy as agreement that they really are women, and that simply isn't true. Transwomen are gender non-conforming men and I'm sure they would have fewer MH problems if they accepted that.

There's a sort of cascade of shit that starts with preferred pronouns, moves on to the nonsense claim "transwomen are women" and conti

Prawnofthepatriarchy Sun 26-Mar-17 18:09:55

...and continues into the cotton ceiling. The handmaidens who swallow every word on Everyday Feminism provide the uncritical endorsement that allow Riley J Dennis to think he can identify as a lesbian and scold women for their discriminatory dating preferences. He only reaches the conclusions he does because enough women have confirmed that men are women and lesbians can have penises.

This all comes from an attempt to be kind, but it's not very kind. Pretending that everyone believes men can be women leads to a situation where transwomen are raging because they aren't getting all that hot lesbian action they think they are entitled to.

I read a really sad article about Jazz Jennings, transgirl and reality TV star. Jazz isn't getting dates and only Jazz is going to be surprised. Straight boys will want a girl. Gay boys will want a boy. The dating pool for most trans people is very small indeed, and lying about this is just cruel. The whole cotton ceiling business comes across as a howl of rage at reality when transwomen realize that no matter how many people use the right pronouns hardly anyone actually believes that they are women.

IllBeBackmaybe Sun 26-Mar-17 18:16:38

If I am discussing a trans person who has been in the news for example, I will use the correct pronouns - that is those matching their biological sex. If it was about a transperson I knew and was friendly with, I'd use their name or "they". I don't tend to address someone using pronouns if I am speaking to them, so it would only really come up if I was talking about them when they were not there.

I am not a good liar and I don't feel comfortable doing it. I have never believed that a person can change their sex and the pronoun thing is a part of that.

Datun Sun 26-Mar-17 19:10:31

Calling a man she, already sets up a perception in both your mind and the mind of anyone who hears it. You have to constantly dismantle that perception in a sort of ongoing mental translation. 'She' confers a measure of ambiguity that is simply not the case. It's insidious and damaging.

MercyMyJewels Sun 26-Mar-17 19:15:07

From the Scottish Trans thread and inspired by tinfoilhat, my preferred pronouns are now hurz / youz. But they have to be said in a broad Scottish accent otherwise you are literally killing me and can die from deep fried mar bars

VestalVirgin Sun 26-Mar-17 20:02:20

I use the preferred pronouns of transwomen who are on the forum in threads if I feel a need to be polite, as in this case, they actually can read it.

Fortunately, the issue has not come up in real life, but I would probably use their name and "you" when talking to them, and use the correct pronouns according to sex when talking to my terfy friends. (And all my friends are "terfs" as they don't believe that men can be women)

How do you feel when someone asks for your preferred pronouns? I find that rather offensive. It is like they are expecting me to be delusional.
I mean, no one walks around asking people whether they identify as Napoleon or more as the Queen of England.
No one even asks children whether they have an imaginary friend!

I can live with it when it is on gatherings or trans people, but it is done at feminist events that should have nothing to do with trans. (Though admittedly, there ARE a lot of transpeople at liberal feminist events.)
And even in completely normal environments where the likelihood that anyone "identifies" as anything is quite low.

SisterMoonshine Mon 27-Mar-17 07:49:18

Oh good. I was feeling quite lonely being uncomfortable with preferred pronouns.

Datun Mon 27-Mar-17 09:45:07

Straight man being filmed by girlfriend, explains why misgendering hurts his feelings.

Neatly illustrating why the collective noun for 56 genders is 'twat'.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=MORAczk_m9w

ghostlyghoulie Mon 27-Mar-17 10:15:26

I'm dreading the day I get asked to introduce myself and my preferred pronouns in a meeting - I really don't know if i'd be able to contain my rage

IllBeBackmaybe Mon 27-Mar-17 10:22:20

ghosty if I got asked my preferred pronouns I think I'd act confused. I couldn't say "she/her" with a straight face. I'd be tempted to say "fuck/off" but don't think that would go down well.

SpartacusX Mon 27-Mar-17 10:31:35

If I said "he/him" would I be allowed to set my own boundaries?

KanyesVest Wed 29-Mar-17 01:03:11

The Associated Press has bought into the singular, gender neutral "they" now too - Washington Post article on the latest AP stylebook

PhoenixJasmine Wed 29-Mar-17 07:33:33

Datun I can't work out if that video is satire or not?

Datun Wed 29-Mar-17 09:14:15

PhoenixJasmine

It didn't occur to me that it was! In the comments he responds with some cliches that are so tired, they are utterly exhausted. So it may be.

Either way, the fact that no one can tell speaks volumes.

PhoenixJasmine Wed 29-Mar-17 10:27:29

If I had more time I might watch more of him and try and work it out... but I do have a job to go to etc grin

TBH I always try and stay as gender neutral as possible in everyday situations anyway. Try to routinely use 'they' unless the sex of the person being referred to is directly relevant to the situation being discussed, in an effort to stop me from automatically presuming sex when it isn't explicitly known (e.g. referring to a PA as female when you don't actually know that, talking about policemen rather than police officers etc).

Datun Wed 29-Mar-17 11:26:41

PhoenixJasmine

I wrote about 'manning' a hot line yesterday. Despite staring at the word for several minutes, I couldn't come up with an alternative.

'Womanning'? 'Personning'?

I irritated myself down a rabbit hole of my own digging.

I can see where it's coming from, but I wouldn't implement it in real life. One of my closest friends is trans. I use his preferred pronouns because that's how I've always known him.

isupposeitsverynice Wed 29-Mar-17 11:50:40

Datun - staffing?

I get round this at work by using the first name incessantly. I'm aware it makes me sound like a loon, but I cannot afford to lose my crappy nmw job for misgendering and I will not refer to a man as she.

AssassinatedBeauty Wed 29-Mar-17 11:52:21

"Staffing", Datun?

Datun Wed 29-Mar-17 12:15:30

Staffing. Yes. But it sounds like more than one person. So does 'they' though.

But yes, staffing it is.

isupposeitsverynice Wed 29-Mar-17 12:37:24

It is interesting, how much of our language is gendered like that, and how hard it is to avoid it.

BetsyM00 Wed 29-Mar-17 12:55:20

How about 'manning, short for humanning.

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