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Girls' school allows pupils to identify as boys

(82 Posts)
IAmAmy Sat 04-Mar-17 12:17:28

Apologies if there's a thread on this or if this should be in an existing thread. I found out about this at a school near my own the other week: www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/19/st-pauls-girls-school-pupils-choose-gender-indentity

What do posters here think of this? I think it's quite a shame in a way, though I'd never want any pupil to feel uncomfortable. Going to a girls' school myself, I think they should be fighting against "gender" and conformity to what's expected from one or the other, this seems to be enforcing the idea certain traits mean someone should be a girl and others mean they're a boy (although I acknowledge my thinking may not be as developed as it should be on this).

Crankycunt Sat 04-Mar-17 12:19:34

Then it isn't a girls school and they need to let other boys in.

NapQueen Sat 04-Mar-17 12:20:20

wearing boys clothes well, anyone should be allowed to wear aby clothes they like regardless of which section of the shop they are displayed in.

being called boys names dont most schools ask what a students given name and chosen name is? So if a Charlotte is sent to school but is only ever called Lottie the parents usually inform the school on the document that her usual name is Lottie. Therefore whats the issue with a Jenifer who gets referred to as Bill?

Freddorika Sat 04-Mar-17 12:21:44

It turns a single sex school into a mixed school. I hope parents of boys will ask to apply and they should be able to.

IAmAmy Sat 04-Mar-17 12:25:48

I don't quite understand the "wearing boys' clothes" line in that as that particular school has no uniform. I concur entirely though NapQueen, clothes are clothes. With regards to names, that's certainly the case at my school.

This seems to me to be cementing the idea of "gender roles" and, far from liberating students, is enforcing the idea of some things/traits being "for girls" and others "for boys".

SexTrainGlue Sat 04-Mar-17 12:25:56

So it admits girls, and lets existing pupils continue through the school regardless of any gender issues that arise.

That sounds pretty humane tbh.

And as it's a private school, they'll see parents voting with their feet if any part of the ethos of the school changes in ways their customers do not like.

NapQueen Sat 04-Mar-17 12:26:14

It is still a single sex school Fred. The sex of the student is still female. That they choose to adopt a male persona and a male moniker doesnt change their genetic make up.

Similarly a male student who chooses to identify as female wouldnt be a suitable candidate for this school seeing as he is genetically male.

Freddorika Sat 04-Mar-17 12:28:48

Ah. Thank you. But I thought if you identify as a male you literally ARE a male?

IAmAmy Sat 04-Mar-17 12:29:54

I'm probably naive and basic in my thinking on this, I just feel everyone should be free to be who they are whether a girl or a boy. There's no reason a girl can't act in a way considered "masculine" but still be a girl. I don't understand why some need to define as boys and be called "he" to act as they wish, if not for society's imposition of gender norms/roles.

NapQueen Sat 04-Mar-17 12:32:16

Errr...hardly. sorry to be so blunt but how on earth could choosing to act and be named a typical male behaviour suddenyl change your biological make up and make you grow a penis?

Whatever sex you are when you are born is the sex you are. Horemone replacement and surgery can significantly alter this and make the body look much closer to how you feel it should, but this student hasnt been down that road.

They were born female. They have a womb and a vagina and probably (or soon to have) breasts. Theyll have the same levels of testosterone found in other females (low) and the same levels of oestrogen found in other females (high). They may choose to dress in a typical male way, they may choose a typically male name, they may choose to act and dress and speak in a way that, to the outside world, they appear male. But they are female.

NapQueen Sat 04-Mar-17 12:32:39

My post was to Fred

NapQueen Sat 04-Mar-17 12:33:26

And excuse my hideous typing - the toddler knocked my autocorrect off and ive no idea how to get it back on.

HmmOkay Sat 04-Mar-17 12:39:20

If there is no uniform then presumably there is no bar to any pupil wearing 'boy's clothes' (whatever the hell they are).

“We consulted the pupils to find out what the issues were. Their main preoccupation has been to look after people who don’t want to identify as one gender or another.”

So how are pupils going to be looked after other than being able to wear what they want and be called what they want? The article doesn't actually seem to say anything. I was a bit confused by it.

And should school leaders really be led by 16 year olds on what the teens perceive the issues to be? I'd want a bit more errrmm leadership than that. Perhaps a lesson on how wearing boys' clothes doesn't make you a boy or something.

IAmAmy Sat 04-Mar-17 12:47:54

HmmOkay I concur. The main change is that pupils there are going to be able to apply to be known as boys, referred to as "he" and so forth. I'm not too happy that a girls' school which doesn't even have a uniform is perpetuating the idea there are "boys' clothes" and girls who think in a certain way are actually, potentially "boys".

VestalVirgin Sat 04-Mar-17 12:56:36

I would not throw girls out of a school because they are going through a phase of being a bit very stupid about gender stereotypes.

However, I would strongly encourage the other girls at the school to wear "boys' clothes" too, and choose absurd new names, too. (Or just do what they do in Harry Potter and refer to them by last names only)

Perhaps that'll diminish the special snowflake appeal.

(If I were a teacher at that school, I'd totally bribe some sane girls to identify as some of the thousands of new "genders" and demand their own locker room, if the "transboys" try that. Then give every child their own gender-appropriate cubicle, made of cardboard, to change in.)

Freddorika Sat 04-Mar-17 13:39:43

napqueen I know. I was quoting the transactivist ideology that a trans woman literally IS a woman

SallyGinnamon Sat 04-Mar-17 14:06:37

This has happened at DD's school. One girl is now called 'Dave'. No issues with her staying there but I would object to a 'girl' from the boys school going.

bamboosocks Sat 04-Mar-17 16:13:17

Preferred name and clothing sounds fine but, aside from any political issues, it'd bother me if I were a teacher there and had to lie. I'll be terfed for it but I don't think it's right for teachers to say a girl is a boy, in the same way it's not ethical to tell kids that the sun orbits the earth. I'd feel horrible guilt just saying the words to keep my job.

VestalVirgin Sat 04-Mar-17 16:34:16

I'll be terfed for it but I don't think it's right for teachers to say a girl is a boy, in the same way it's not ethical to tell kids that the sun orbits the earth. I'd feel horrible guilt just saying the words to keep my job.

I agree. It would be unethical to lie to children, especially as teacher.

I'd try to get around the nonsense by just using the new name and never using pronouns.

larrygrylls Sat 04-Mar-17 17:22:28

'I'll be terfed for it but I don't think it's right for teachers to say a girl is a boy, in the same way it's not ethical to tell kids that the sun orbits the earth. I'd feel horrible guilt just saying the words to keep my job.'

Under what circumstances would a teacher have to 'lie'. Calling a student 'he' instead of 'she' is merely calling them by their chosen pronoun, not claiming that the female has gone from XX to XY.

And St Pauls can do whatever they like, they have a long waiting list of pupils to join and teachers who would love to be employed there. I believe that they have a strong pastoral team (after a fair few issues in the past) who have probably considered all aspects of this and decided what they consider to be the best solution.

StealthPolarBear Sat 04-Mar-17 17:34:42

What is going on? Why is this suddenly such a huge issue. I get that when I was at school there will have been people who were unhappy and would have been transgender if there wasn't such stigma and I agree with the removal of the stigma.
but the numbers just...don't seem to add up somehow.

Datun Sat 04-Mar-17 18:40:49

Bordersarethebest

"Dave" grin.

The thing is they are either buying into gender identity or they aren't. If they are, boys should be able to identify as girls and be admitted. They might need to make it clear that the school is sex segregated not gender. And be prepared for it all to kick off.

And I might well start calling all the pupils by neutral pronouns such as 'they' to puncture the bloody special snowflakery.

VestalVirgin Sat 04-Mar-17 19:11:01

I think by letting the girls stay there, they are taking a stance on the trans ideology, namely, acknowledge that this gendernonsense is just a phase those girls are going through that should not disrupt their education.

If they really believed that the girls changed sex, they'd kick them out, wouldn't they?

BevGoldbergsSister Sat 04-Mar-17 20:53:21

So many questions...

Can it be a girls school with boys?

Surely they have to accept transgirls too, as girls?

Is it not very dangerous and triggering for these transboys to be at a girl school? Is that not misgendering? Which is akin to commiting literal violence against the transboys.

So then surely the school has to change to mixed or the transboys have to leave before they become suicidal.

Datun Sun 05-Mar-17 06:33:10

It does wind me up. Does that school seriously think that there are 10 girls who have been born in the wrong body?

I'm going to assume that no they don't.

Does that school understand what gender dysphoria is? Again I bet they don't know much about it.

They now these girls are pulling a fast one. And yet the school have managed to get themselves into the paper because they can't say no.

Maria Miller has created a monster and made a monumental mistake. Legalising, or even giving credence to, self imposed gender identity as a protected characteristic is giving the green light to every tricky teen in the country.

At the very least, they have spawned 50 odd different genders and all the ridiculous time wasting discourse surrounding them.

Meanwhile people with real gender dysphoria are being ignored.

The legislation needs to be overhauled to say you cannot discriminate against somebody on the basis of how they present. But doesn't mean you will be treated as the opposite sex.

Every person has human rights - women's rights are different on the basis of their sex. It really shouldn't be up for question.

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