Trans law in USA

[sassandfaff]

Trump administration rescinds transgender students' bathroom protections

Trump pulls transgender law

[MorrisZapp]

I need urgent help with this. My FB feed is awash with horrified reactions from the world's liberals, and loads of 'transgender people only want to pee in peace' with tens of thousands of likes.

I feel like a lonely spoon in a world of forks.

I've put a brief comment on two memes but I'm such a miniscule minority and the only other 'criticals' are citing God, family values and liberal brainwashing.

Oh christ how much do I hate this...

[Datun]

You could offer an enthusiastic rallying cry to 'let's all band together and get trans-people a bathroom of their own. It is the right to their own space, let's help them achieve their rights!'

You will still get shouted down for being transphobic , but the explanation of why they want women's spaces might make a few people wake up. It will be all about validation, but we are real women, and suddenly the 'place to pee' trope will get dropped.

[JellyWitch]

I'm struggling as well and being made to look like a right wing nutter by lovely crunchy lefty friends!!!

No time to argue it properly with someone who thinks that even with a working penis someone can still be female.

[Birdsbeesandtrees]

Can someone help me with this too ?

Why is it so bad about transwomen in female bathrooms ? Someone's posted something like "there's never been an incident of any kind so blah blah"

Is that true ? That there have never been any issues ? I suspect not.

[zippey]

I suspect Trans people will not take kindly to seperate bathrooms though. They will want to use the bathroom to what sex they think they are. It affects both male and females.

Though, as a general rule, if you agree with Trump on something then you are probably wrong in your views!

[EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans]

Completely untrue. Here are some examples of dangerous female-presenting men in women's spaces.

I'm phrasing it like that because a popular counter-argument is that these people aren't really trans. How we're meant to know the difference, and how to keep the dangerous ones out, has never been satisfactorily explained.

[MorrisZapp]

Yes, are there instances of women being attacked in bathrooms? According to my liberal GB army it has never happened.

[Birdsbeesandtrees]

Exactly - everything I see is just denial.

It never happened. Puberty blockers are harmless.

[EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans]

And another

Absolutely puberty blockers are harmless, Birds. Prostate cancer drugs like Lupron are good for kids. And breast binding is empowering.

[DanGleballs]

Before the whole trans debate women were still attacked in toilets though? It isn't as if this is a new thing. The sort of man who dresses up in a skirt with the intention of going in female toilets and sexually assaulting women wasn't put off by the law saying they shouldn't be in there.

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

When I was young I was in a changing room at a beach. I heard a noise and turned around and there was a man watching me. I went to scream and he scarpered. These days maybe young girls would be too scared / brainwashed / politically correct to do the same, or maybe if caught he could play the trans card and no doubt the girl would be told to be nice. Recently I was at a pool and two young girls were saying 'you're a BOY' to an older than them boy who was dressed up in girly clothes, but who was obviously male. The girls did not want to undress. The boy, who would have been on the brink of puberty, just sat there, not getting changed or anything. It was very awkward. I felt for the girls, but likely most would have tod them to get on with it ... (There were no supervising adults present).

[Enb76]

I say make all loos unisex and then there's no problem. Closed cubicles and make everyone feel the pain of long queues. I couldn't give a stuff if I use a blokes loo and have been known to if the women's queue is dreadful and the mens is empty.

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

Yech. I refuse to use unisex because of the mess and smell. Maybe men don't mind standing in pee, but I hate sitting on it.

[JellyWitch]

Empress, the trouble is that this is preaching to those who "know" they are right and have their ears closed. That You Tube clip would be seen as anti-trans ans not further the discussion I fear.

[EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans]

I know, Jelly

But a lot of women have been introduced to all this via Mumsnet, so it's still worth posting.

[TheCraicDealer]

As would I, but I’ve been lucky in that nothing has happened to me to date that would make me feel particularly vulnerable having to go unisex loos and sharing an intimate space with men. I was on reddit earlier and that’s what so many (male) posters failed to grasp; some women need these private female-only spaces, it’s not a question of being small minded or a bigot. There was a complete lack of awareness about how unnerving it can be being a woman, being followed, being catcalled, harassed (and those are relatively minor in some people’s wealth of experience) and knowing that that other person is stronger and could likely do what they want if they were so inclined. Imagine in that sort of scenario they were able to follow you into a private/intimate space, like a toilet, and no-one could call them out on it? I still don’t get why women should have to give up this small element of security and privacy to validate a small minority’s choices or make them feel more comfortable.

[TheCountessofFitzdotterel]

'The sort of man who dresses up in a skirt with the intention of going in female toilets and sexually assaulting women wasn't put off by the law saying they shouldn't be in there.'

Some wouldn't have been, no, but if a man is in the women's changing rooms to watch women you would have been able to get rid of him but now you won't.
Even if he is very obviously staring you won't be able to prove anything and even if he was wanking he would obviously deny it so unless there were several witnesses you would risk being the one getting in trouble for transphobia for making it up.

Most transwomen obviously just want to get changed but I don't understand this ridiculous denial that there are also plenty of perves out there. Most women probably aren't going to end up physically attacked but peeping Tom and flashing type crimes are really really common.

[Bragadocia]

Before the whole trans debate women were still attacked in toilets though

yes, but the gender neutral laws make it impossible for anyone to challenge someone who appears to be in the wrong toilet. Before, if spotted, that person could be ejected.

[Datun]

dan

Before the whole trans debate women were still attacked in toilets though? It isn't as if this is a new thing. The sort of man who dresses up in a skirt with the intention of going in female toilets and sexually assaulting women wasn't put off by the law saying they shouldn't be in there.

The efforts to control violent and sexual crime don't generally provide potential offenders legitimate, unfettered access to their victims, though.

[sassandfaff]

I think the whole, has there ever been an attack in public toilets is a bit disingenuous to be honest.

They aren't allowed in toilets at the minute by law, so the statistical likeliness of this happening will be low.

The more accurate way to get a description of their perceived threat is to just look at the incidences of violence and there is plenty of that.

[ChocChocPorridge]

Before the whole trans debate women were still attacked in toilets though? It isn't as if this is a new thing. The sort of man who dresses up in a skirt with the intention of going in female toilets and sexually assaulting women wasn't put off by the law saying they shouldn't be in there

But if they're there, and they're not supposed to be there, we can a) get them kicked out, and b) back out of the toilet and not go in.

If anyone is allowed in any toilet, we lose what little protection even that provided us. How can we tell if the man in the dress is a predator, or feels they are a woman today?

If you look at a risk/benefit diagram, then what is basically being asked is that women take on all the extra risk, for no benefit to transwomen.

In fact, whilst I can link to numerous changing room and bathroom attacks by men dressed as women, I haven't actually seen anyone provide any evidence of transwomen being attacked in mens toilets. I've seen selfies, talking about how awkward it is, but all the blokes in the background were entirely minding their own business.

[sassandfaff]

A few on this blog

[Bragadocia]

Half a dozen MNers all respond to Dan's comment at once!

[sassandfaff]

I would argue for woman to keep their own toilets and to make the male toilet the unisex ones.

It will kill lots of birds with one stone.
The argument will then be between men and trans women. Also, the trans women won't be able to argue they specifically want to use the females, because they have a unisex toilet available to them. Women will feel safe and those women who are on the trans side, can go and join them in the 'unisex' toilet.

Problem solved.

[Datun]

birds

Disregard the rather provocative title of this link, but it does detail many of the crimes committed by men identifying as women.

Transactivists will tell you those people are not really transgender, but as, according to the legal definition, they are, it doesn't really help.

A high proportion of transwomen are attracted to women and retain their male genitalia. It doesn't take much to connect the dots.

outofmypantiesnow.wordpress.com/2013/10/28/when-is-90-not-substantially-all/

I regularly Google 'transwoman killed in male bathroom' and, in the UK at least, there aren't any.