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I am Spartacus Action Group Anyone?

(117 Posts)
CoolJazz Tue 31-Jan-17 08:13:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Poppyred85 Tue 31-Jan-17 08:36:21

I would like to. I have to say though that it makes me a little nervous. Having seen the vitriol on and being open to potentially career and life ruining vexatious complaints against my governing body does concern me. Can this be done under a pseudonym or semi-anonymously? The thought that I should have to do it like that really pisses me off but I also have to be realistic about how some transactivists have behaved.

CaoNiMa Tue 31-Jan-17 08:37:16

Count me in!

JanuaryMoods Tue 31-Jan-17 08:39:29


CoolJazz Tue 31-Jan-17 08:44:14

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Prawnofthepatriarchy Tue 31-Jan-17 10:42:33

I would have thought the same, OP. I have already written privately as I can't see that my MP is going to set baseball bat wielding activists on me. Plus no one is going to take any notice of anonymous letters.

We already have had threads on FWR covering petitions and letters. I can see that having a permanent Spartacus thread would make it easy to track letter campaigns and petitions. I think it seems a good idea.

CoolJazz Wed 01-Feb-17 08:28:10

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhisperingLoudly Wed 01-Feb-17 09:43:17

Are you familiar with:

YetAnotherSpartacus Wed 01-Feb-17 10:14:51

I think it is a great idea ... but I need to be very, very careful for professional reasons. The TRA approach to trans is sacrosanct in the area in which I work.

Datun Wed 01-Feb-17 11:11:18


"The TRA approach to trans is sacrosanct in the area in which I work."

The fear of speaking out is so shocking - it has something of the Twilight Zone about it.

It was really born in on me during the web chat with Jess Phillips how stymied everyone is.

When the question 'what is a woman?' is not only unanswered, but completely unaddressed, there is clearly a very big problem indeed.

The only two answers to that question are either the biological one, or the 'feeling in the head' one.

The fact that Jess was unable to give either answer indicates, to me, that she was concerned over the backlash from the two opposing camps.

Criticism of transactivism produces not only threats of violence from TRAs, but also outrage from everyday folk who see it as exclusionary and tied up with LGB rights (erroneously in my opinion).

The answer to 'what is a women' provides the basis of the conflict.

I really can't imagine anyone in their right mind would be willing to officially agree that it is just a feeling. You would have women, scientists, doctors, biologists, linguists, feminists, pedants, mothers and any number of people profoundly disagreeing. Many people aren't aware of the ridiculous claims that TRAs are making.

Spotlighting that one, significant, vital question might highlight the damage underlying the ideology.

Forcing an answer must at least provoke a debate where debate has become taboo.

Knowing how some threads here are picked up by MSN and seeing that the Daily Mail is beginning to have a bit of an axe to grind in terms of the trans-ideology maybe we could start a threat 'what is a woman?'

I can see it being a fairly easy thread to recreate in the media, as there is no real judgement to it. It's simply asking a question.

I can see the DM reporting "Mumsnet is asking the question 'What is a woman?' The answers are interesting!"

There will be various answers, but I doubt any of them will include 'a man who wears a dress'. If it does, all the better, as it will be provocative.

So instead of the Daily Mail exploiting mumsnet, do you think mumsnet can exploit the Daily Mail by providing them with a means of getting the question out there?

CharlieSierra Wed 01-Feb-17 20:36:59

I like your idea Datun

theaveragewife Wed 01-Feb-17 20:38:37

Marking place for more thought on this tomorrow, but initial reaction is that I'd like to be involved.

Seeingadistance Wed 01-Feb-17 23:35:03

Yes, I'd like to be involved. Count me in.

TitaniasCloset Thu 02-Feb-17 18:08:20

I will do what I can.

Albadross Fri 03-Feb-17 20:42:19

I'm in too

PolterGoose Fri 03-Feb-17 21:48:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MiddleGround Wed 08-Feb-17 01:14:32

Count me in

FairPlayForWomen Wed 08-Feb-17 03:00:15

I'm in smile

I'm also willing to add stuff to, as long as it doesn't involve me writing an article. You can PM me or post on here.

Thanks for the mention, Whispering!

CoolJazz Wed 08-Feb-17 19:22:47

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun Wed 08-Feb-17 19:33:03


That sounds like a good starting point. It's difficult to present much of a pro-drugs argument when it comes to children.

I suspect they will say they don't administer drugs to anyone under 18. However asking why there is little, or no alternative counselling if you are not going down the drugs, might be a good point to make.

And yes, solidarity with Fish.

Datun Wed 08-Feb-17 19:36:12

Also, I think we should all do it at different times. So make notes in our diaries to do it two or three weeks apart. I don't think it has the same impact if they all come at once as it will look like it has been a concerted effort from a cohort.

And no template email. For the same reason.

CoolJazz Wed 08-Feb-17 19:41:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MiddleGround Wed 08-Feb-17 20:38:11

Excellent interview here questioning the female erasure phenomenon - Tucker Carlson Interviews Kara Dansky - Teaming Up Against Obama Transgender Bathroom Mandate:

Datun Wed 08-Feb-17 21:26:07


Thanks for the heads up. I'll check it out.

bejiggery Thu 09-Feb-17 11:56:33

Another great video not sure if its been posted before

geekaMaxima Thu 09-Feb-17 12:46:12

Could we make a concerted effort to upvote/downvote particular definitions on It's a small point, but urbandictionary gets huge traffic and when people Google words like terf and cis, it's usually at or near the top of the search results, so it could help us control the overwhelming TA message to some extent. (For those unfamiliar, urbandictionary comprises user-submitted definitions and usage examples: the one with most net votes goes to top of page).

For instance, I downvoted the current top definition of terf:
Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. That group of feminists that claims that trans women aren't really women, as biological determinism is only a fallacy when it used against them, not when they use it against others.
Isn't it mindboggling that the Royal College of Psychiatrists would invite a TERF like Julie Bindel to come talk at a study day on transgenderism and transsexuality? That's like inviting Fred Phelps to come deliver the keynote at a gay pride.

And upvoted this one instead:
Trans-Exlusionary Radical Feminist. Originally just named radical feminism. The basis of radical feminism is that gender is a social construct forced upon people at birth and are roles specifically designed to keep women subordinate to men (masculinity vs.feminity). Men, Trans activist, and liberal feminist use the term "TERF" because the principle of radical feminism cannot coexist with gender/trans ideology
TERF is usually thrown at any woman who express a female centered opionion or whose opinion is out of line with gender ideology. And of course, diversity of opinion is bad and liberals will silence you immediately with the term TERF to justify your harrassment, beating, and raping. All in the name of progressiveness

bejiggery Thu 09-Feb-17 14:32:40

Geekamaxima good idea does it need its own thread though perhaps on here and AIBU ?

MiddleGround Thu 09-Feb-17 17:16:30

Please forgive me but I need to rant:

I spent 7 years gaining university qualifications (undergraduate and post graduate) to become proficient in the fields of biology, microbiology and genetics. I spent my professional working life teaching anatomy and physiology, microbiology, genetics plus a whole raft of biological science topics. I feel that my entire academic and professional career is being nullified by the transactivist agenda to the extend that I my entire existence is being invalidated and believe me when I say I am not amused. I will therefore lend my unwavering support to any and all lobbyists/speakers/activists who will hopefully continue to question this destructive agenda.

Datun Thu 09-Feb-17 18:14:03


Write just that to your MP insisting they represent your views at the second reading of the Gender Identity Bill (Maria Miller) on February 24th.

If it's any comfort, I love it when someone with a background such as yours comes on and slays the issue with science.

Merely being an actual woman doesn't appear to have enough credibility.

MiddleGround Thu 09-Feb-17 19:13:56

Datun as suggested a rather more lengthy version of my initial comments has been sent to my MP. As I am unable to work anymore due to ill health I do not stand to lose my job and therefore have no fears of speaking out against this rhetoric. I pointed out that in the absence of appropriate investigations into issues associated with for example, social contagion, pre-existing mental health issues, social isolation etc etc (long list) that we are failing to protect vulnerable young people. Hope other concerned parents will also speak out xx

CharlieSierra Thu 09-Feb-17 19:30:03

Just putting this here in case anyone is nearby/interested

Datun Thu 09-Feb-17 20:17:38

Good middle, but don't be surprised if you get some wanky form letter back banging on about inclusion and not addressing a single point you've made.

Keep writing.

Datun Thu 09-Feb-17 20:18:12


I'm not nearby but I am interested. So thank you very much for that link.

MiddleGround Thu 09-Feb-17 20:42:28

Likewise very interested to attend the event - does anyone know if it is a legitimate event? I am somewhat concerned that it may be targeted by protesters who want to push their own agenda

CharlieSierra Thu 09-Feb-17 20:54:57

It is a legitimate event. The actual venue has not yet been published, I'm guessing to avoid protesters.

CharlieSierra Thu 09-Feb-17 20:56:45

There's a bit more on this link about Critical Sisters

MiddleGround Thu 09-Feb-17 21:06:07

CharlieSierra I really want to go but I am guessing that many people like me may be frightened at the potential backlash from you know where. At my age and with serious health issues I would not be able to cope with unacceptable behaviour from vocal individuals trying to stifle a debate

Prawnofthepatriarchy Thu 09-Feb-17 21:13:05

I wouldn't worry about it, MiddleGround. I went to a feminist conference about transgender in central London last July, also organised by Eventbrite, and it was brilliant. No demonstrators but even if there had been there was low key security provided by amazing amazon lesbians. Julie Bindel spoke there too.

It'll be a hell of a trek for me to go to Cheltenham for the day but I got such a buzz from the last one that I just might make it.

I too am getting on, and my health is not good but there's nothing as supportive as a feminist gathering.

CharlieSierra Thu 09-Feb-17 21:17:26

Middle I totally understand your concerns. I'm going because I've been feeling very strongly lately that I need to do more than vent online so I've been actively looking for ways to become more involved. I know the person behind the organisation from another group, and I hope it will be successful and that there will be no shouty men. No guarantees though. sad

CharlieSierra Thu 09-Feb-17 21:18:25

Oh, I'm old too grin

MiddleGround Thu 09-Feb-17 21:27:07

Hope you find this insightful piece of writing useful:

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans Thu 09-Feb-17 21:30:35

Great thread, I'd like to join in too.

I can't make the Critical Sisters event sad but for anyone considering it, I went to the same feminist conference as Prawn and yes, it was bloody brilliant. Imagine a roomful of women shouting along with Magdalen Berns "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LESBIAN WITH A PENIS!!!!!"

Prawnofthepatriarchy Thu 09-Feb-17 22:05:30

God, wasn't it great, Empress! Sigh... Do you fancy going to Cheltenham?

Being old and fat, I'm not going to be intimidated by any TRAs. They won't be expecting resistance from someone who looks like their auntie. But I can be fearless when roused. grin

Prawnofthepatriarchy Thu 09-Feb-17 22:07:20

Paul McHugh, the author of the piece you linked to, MiddleGround, is a family friend, oddly enough.

PolterGoose Thu 09-Feb-17 22:08:30

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Prawnofthepatriarchy Thu 09-Feb-17 22:08:53

Sorry, Empress, just spotted you can't go to Cheltenham. Shame.

PacificDogwod Thu 09-Feb-17 22:12:36

I'm in too.

I wrote to the BMA, registering my... astonishment at their guidance and got a reply that stated it was advice for the workplace and not for doctors treating patients or summat hmm

CharlieSierra Thu 09-Feb-17 22:13:14

Shall I wear a red carnation?

Datun Thu 09-Feb-17 22:16:27

I've never been to a feminist talk - fairly thin on the ground where I live.

Is there a secret MN handshake?

Prawnofthepatriarchy Thu 09-Feb-17 22:23:07

When we know who is definitely coming we can swap numbers and arrange to meet up. There's bound to be a café or such.

Prawnofthepatriarchy Thu 09-Feb-17 22:24:19

That's if people are comfortable with meeting up in the flesh. I was so delighted to meet Empress.

CharlieSierra Thu 09-Feb-17 22:27:44

I would love to. I can suggest a place when we find out the venue.

MiddleGround Thu 09-Feb-17 22:27:49

I am totally exhausted with trying to make sense of a nonsensical agenda - would some kind soul please provide a response to this deluded individual? who frightening works with young people under 21 and seems to be actively promoting the transgender rhetoric

PenelopeParmesan Thu 09-Feb-17 22:43:31

Middleground- thank you for sharing that, it's great. Really interesting.

venusinscorpio Thu 09-Feb-17 22:51:25

Sounds great, I might be able to make this. Please add me to any secret meet up PM lists smile

Datun Thu 09-Feb-17 23:02:47

Add me to the list.

Prawnofthepatriarchy Thu 09-Feb-17 23:03:14

Here's a link to all the posts about Jay Stewart on the blog 4th Wave Now, which is for the parents of children caught up in the gender cult. And here's a link to all the posts about the same sinister individual from the blog GenderTrender. Both these blogs are packed with resources for the gender critical, MiddleGround*. Dr Stewart appears to be doing very nicely out of transing children.

Prawnofthepatriarchy Thu 09-Feb-17 23:06:57

Here's a link to all the posts about Jay Stewart on the blog 4th Wave Now, which is for the parents of children caught up in the gender cult. And here's a link to all the posts about the same sinister individual from the blog GenderTrender. If you haven't come across them before, both these blogs are packed with resources for the gender critical, MiddleGround*. Dr Stewart appears to be doing very nicely out of transing children.

It's a ridiculous argument - that we let children lead the way in very serious and complex health matters. I mean it works so well when it comes to anorexia or self harm....

Prawnofthepatriarchy Thu 09-Feb-17 23:07:54

Well, that was clever of me! How did I do that?

Datun Thu 09-Feb-17 23:12:31


Yeah, that's right. He says there is no science when it comes to sex or gender and by the time science reaches people like him it's been twisted out of all recognition. Okaaay.

He's right there's no science to gender though.

I do think this whole thing will fizzle out. You can't deny the science of sex. It's ridiculous. And there is no science to gender whatsoever. It has no scientific basis. It's presentation preference. By definition it's what you wear and how you act.

MiddleGround Fri 10-Feb-17 01:08:37

I only hope for the sake of these young people that it does fizzle out but I fear that many more will be damaged before the medical profession finally realises they have been had by a sinister rhetoric. It needs to stop here and now before it spirals out of control. I also fear that the only ones to benefit are those with vested interests and big pharma who stand to make a fortune from life long drug dependency and as we are all aware the is one hell of a powerful lobby. I do hope they have enough monies in their coffers for the compensation payouts that will inevitably follow.

CaroleService Fri 10-Feb-17 09:15:46

There are some marvellous links on this thread!!

MiddleGround Fri 10-Feb-17 11:43:53

Is it just me suffering with an extreme case of cognitive dissonance with all this transgender rhetoric or is it norm with people who have come across it? What I fail to comprehend is why parents and advocates of transgenderism cannot recognise it for what it is - social and cultural genocide - as the reproductive rights and possibilities of those children and young people caught up in this trend are severely limited and reduced to cryogenically preserved sperm and ova, who will carry to term the offspring of these preserved gametes? The transwoman with a sythesised womb or the transman whose womb has been removed? It is a dystopian vision that is no longer in the future we are living it right here and now. Could it be that those persons who deviate from the "norm" and who are praised for their "braveness" and their "revolutionary and visionary" ideology are complicit in the wanton destruction and annihilation of a vulnerable sector of society?

Datun Fri 10-Feb-17 11:58:57


Ratcheting up the implications does look like what you have posted. But as trans people are a tiny percentage of the population, I don't think it will be noticed on much of a significant scale.

Having said that, the more becoming trans is seen as some kind of aspiration and a cool way of asserting your individuality, the more people get seduced by it.

But yes. If having a deluded parent isn't bad enough, having two deluded parents and involving all kinds of medical intervention to bring you into the world is not, in my opinion, the best start in life.

MiddleGround Fri 10-Feb-17 12:15:10

Fair point Datun but looking into the hypothetical crystal ball does indicate some potentially very worrying outcomes especially as the trend becomes the norm. I am sure you have read many many blogs as I have and read very distressing accounts from an increasingly worried population of parents whose children/young people have been caught up in this phenomenon.

Datun Fri 10-Feb-17 12:30:10

Frankly, sometimes I don't know which way to turn for all the layer upon layer and tentacles of damage connected to this ideology.

One minute it's the erosion of women's rights, the next it's the transing of children, the next it's teens jumping on it like some kind of fashion statement. The young women who find their gender so disadvantageous that they want to swap it, the male fetishists bundling in under the radar, the arrogance of men deciding to speak as and for feminists. All the newspeak and the heinous crime of daring to talk about women's biology and how it affects them. The sterilisation of young people and encouragement of lifelong dependency on drugs, the human tragedy of detransition.

And how about the fact that, according to discrimination law, it is not legal for women to gather together without the presence of a man if that man says so.

Brave? Inspirational? Progressive?

I have no words.

boldlygoingsomewhere Fri 10-Feb-17 12:41:55

That event in Cheltenham looks really interesting - shame it's too far for me to get too. Will hope for another in London soon.

MiddleGround Fri 10-Feb-17 14:18:58

I have a hypothetical question - if all the transitioned transgender people were put on an island how long would the species survive?

Datun Fri 10-Feb-17 15:19:23

If they were post op, it wouldn't.

venusinscorpio Fri 10-Feb-17 15:26:48

If they were all taking hormones there is a good chance it wouldn't either.

MiddleGround Fri 10-Feb-17 15:57:42

Eureka moment - they would not exist in nature

Datun Fri 10-Feb-17 16:05:21


They don't exist in nature. Gender dysphoria is a psychological issue. There is no such thing as 'born in the wrong body', it's scientifically impossible. Every cell of a trans-person's brain will have the DNA of their born sex.

MiddleGround Fri 10-Feb-17 16:14:10

Datun I know that but just had to say it out load to validate my own experience and knowledge of teaching biology wink

Datun Fri 10-Feb-17 16:26:53


I have to admit, it can drive you round the bend.

I say somethings to DH where he looks at me as though I have taken leave of my senses.

If people are not aware of this stuff it can truly sound as though you're either insane or you really haven't grasped it properly and must be mistaken.

Lalsy Fri 10-Feb-17 16:39:24

Hello Spartacae grin.

Interesting thread, thank you all for some great links.

I agree about sounding deranged. I have started mumbling "google Miranda Yardley" and running away but I think a lot of my less techy friends are also less up on this as they have had the Today programme nonsense.

Fair Play for Women - is there any information about who is behind the website (i realise why there might not be)? It looks great.

Prawnofthepatriarchy Fri 10-Feb-17 20:06:17

I've been investigating the Cheltenham event. They don't provide an address for the venue apart from Cheltenham. It's quite an early start, so I'd have to go on Friday night and stay over. I'll be looking for a B&B or cheap hotel within easy walking distance so I've emailed the organizers. If they can't provide an address atm, I've asked them to give me a nearby landmark.

If I can afford it, I think I'll go. The event I went to last summer was one of the best things I did in 2016. It was amazing to be with a huge gang of other gender critical feminists. Here's a link to the video playlist of all the speakers at the July conference.

The fact that the organizers aren't giving an address at present suggests they are wary of TRAs. Me, I'm not taking any shit. If any aggressive activists turn up I'll be poised to call the police the minute they overstep the mark.

Notwhatiexpected Fri 10-Feb-17 21:34:11

Count me in. X

bejiggery Fri 10-Feb-17 23:02:21

Time for a private viral pm campaign in plain language on facebook about this issue, from women to women similar to the breast cancer ones. With links to explain we are not bigots but to point out what's happening and the threat to women and children. I'm livid and I didn't think I was a Rad Fem, but I do now. I'm trying to explain this to a 14 year old daughter but she thinks I'm talking shit when I dare to question transgender without listening to the facts.

bejiggery Fri 10-Feb-17 23:07:50

In fact on this she dismisses me as she would Donald Trump although on most issues I lean to the left!

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans Fri 10-Feb-17 23:08:48

It was great to meet you too, Prawn!

Cheltenham clashes with a family event, unfortunately, or I would have tried to get there.

I tweet about this, a lot, and say things on Facebook but much more cautiously. I've started talking about it in RL, even more cautiously, & a lot of people really have no idea it's happening.

venusinscorpio Fri 10-Feb-17 23:10:01

I wouldn't try to give your argument. I'd try to get her to talk through her ideas about it. Act dumb. She may realise how batshit this all is when she has to put it into her own words.

Prawnofthepatriarchy Fri 10-Feb-17 23:26:13

My son is a lot older than your DD, Bejiggery, but what persuaded him to explore the issue was me asking him to define the word "woman" in a way that covered all the billions of women on the planet and the transwomen.

He went off for quite a while, overnight I think. Anyway when he came back he said he couldn't.

That was all it took. He's very analytical and he realised that it didn't hang together.

fakenamefornow Fri 10-Feb-17 23:30:56

I'm in.

Lalsy Fri 10-Feb-17 23:54:14

Similarly, I asked (late teen) dd what feeling like a woman could mean in say Saudi and the UK - and how innate gender could be transmitted given the variations in its meaning, historically and culturally. Then she read up on it.

bejiggery Sat 11-Feb-17 11:17:32

That's someone supporting Donald Trump and the irk she would give them over their views. Not me supporting him btw. She just dismisses me as a bigot but she knows I'm not. I've bought my children up to be open minded and fair to all. So either she thinks I've changed overnight into a different person or the brainwashing is so engrained people won't even question it. She's has a very close Trans friend and I'm very supportive of that friendship. I just see this as woman and girls getting thrown to the wolves once again as the extremely vunerable girls were in Birmingham for the sake of pc madness and the benefit of men.

MiddleGround Sat 11-Feb-17 13:55:03

Germaine Greer under fire again:

Prawnofthepatriarchy Sat 11-Feb-17 16:56:00

I've commented on the Greer article. It's bloody outrageous, trying to get a feminist icon to STFU.

That FB thread where they tried to prevent women from wearing pussy hats on the anti-Trump march was bad enough, though I think the march itself was misguided.

There are a lot of pseudo progressive misogynists in the Brighton area, it seems.

boldlygoingsomewhere Sat 11-Feb-17 19:20:48

I'm quite heartened that all the comments are supportive of Greer. Hoping people are starting to wake up the problem of self-identification.

dorade Sun 12-Feb-17 00:36:45

Count me in. I emailed EHRC on a recent consultation as they had used gender instead of sex as a protected characteristic. They did reply to say that they were wrong and in future they would use sex. But too late on this one.
I'm afraid I am nowhere near as optimistic as some posters that we are reaching peak trans. So many people are prepared to unquestioningly accept the 'born in the wrong body' nonsense and many LGBT organisations are almost exclusively T.
I'm also up for any meet ups. Radfems are a bit thin on the ground in my neck of the woods.

FairPlayForWomen Sun 12-Feb-17 04:31:14

Laisy - we're a feministy Facebook group with a large contingent from this very MN board grin Nothing corporate about it, no funding, and I manage the site as I'm not working.

FairPlayForWomen Sun 12-Feb-17 04:45:52

I only live 50 miles from Cheltenham, and I can't get there in less than 3½ hours by public transport! Never move to a quaint rural location.

Lalsy Sun 12-Feb-17 08:45:30

Ooooh I will have a look, fair play thank you.

Gingernaut Sun 12-Feb-17 12:26:27

I've bought a ticket to Cheltenham. First time I've bought a ticket to anything that doesn’t involve music or comedy. confused

I'm getting rebellious in my old age. I have no idea what I'm letting myself in for....confused

bejiggery Sun 12-Feb-17 23:15:41

She wins, she (or logic) scores. "Mum not all transgenders agree with the transgender activists, some are reasonable you like my friend, so please don't judge them all in the same way". I kept quiet she's obviously read the links I've sent her, I sense a major shift.

venusinscorpio Sun 12-Feb-17 23:44:52


Prawnofthepatriarchy Mon 13-Feb-17 20:30:49

Gingernaut, I went to my first feminist conference last summer and it was brilliant.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans Mon 13-Feb-17 21:38:34

I went too, Gingernaut, and Prawn's right. It was FANTASTIC.

Gingernaut Mon 13-Feb-17 22:34:28

Ok. I should see some of you in Cheltenham then. confused Not at all sure what I've let myself in for.....hmm

MiddleGround Wed 15-Feb-17 21:36:52

I think action is needed very soon as this document may well inform the upcoming debate on 24.02.17 - anyone up for it? Any thoughts?

Gingernaut Thu 16-Feb-17 08:01:07

Um. I've just downloaded that Stonewall document to find one title page and 36 blank pages. confused

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