Page 7 | DD and the trans thing. She's really sucked in and not able to see an alternative view

(260 Posts)
FarmerJiles Thu 19-Jan-17 13:47:12

So, DD 14 is increasingly being exposed to the trans thing. She knows several kids in her peer group who believe themselves to be trans - both MtT and FtT, and are very vocal about it. Her school has definitely embraced the affirmation approach, and several boys wear skirts to school, and lots of names have been changed on registers.

I fully support these young people to express themselves how they want to, and to make whatever changes they need to feel at ease with themselves. However, I am very worried about this as a trend/fashion.

There is so much talk about gender, sexuality, and to express any views that might suggest a vaguely feminist take on it are immediately jumped on as bigoted. I fear that these kids are reinforcing each other and possibly going down paths they may regret because it is very hard to back off when you have been expressing such strong views so vigorously.

I have talked to DD about this, but in a rather ham-fisted way i think. I'd really, really like someone to point me in the direction of resources that DD and I can look at that take it back to basics, and show the issues the trans thing raise, so it can gently open her mind. I want DD to start to see this in a calm objective way, rather than me trying to criticise her (dear) friends.

I know about Magdelen Berns, but DD refuses to watch her (she is transphobic apparently according to her friends). So where to look/read/watch?

Thank goodness for this board, btw, but I don't think it would be a suitable staring point for DD at the moment!

OP’s posts: |
icyfront Thu 16-Feb-17 20:37:40

It’s been a long time since I was a parent of a teen, so I don’t know if this might help:

www.eatliver.com/crazy-logic/

I should say that the website describes its content as “Crazy Pictures of the Insane Internet”, and usually has funny images: animals photobombing, mocking Trump’s hairstyle, and similar sarky stuff. But this particular cartoon does go some way to pointing out the illogicality of adult thinking about transing children.

But if you don’t want to click on the link, and anyway you don't know me, the text is:

Mom, I want to drink alcohol.
– No, Jenny, you are 9.

Mom, I want to start smoking.
– No, Billy, you are 12.

Mom, I want to vote.
– No, Timmy, you are 6.

Mom, I’m actually a girl and want to make life-altering decisions based on that premise.
– Have some estrogen and we’ll schedule a surgery.

venusinscorpio Thu 16-Feb-17 23:34:49

That's cool, icy grin on another thread in feminism chat the idea of all these many dozens of genders that teenagers apparently know about and old people don't that lancelottie mentioned is being throughly explored.

Fairyflaps Fri 17-Feb-17 10:38:23

I echo other's recommendations of the TransgenderTrend website and 4thwaynow - but for you rather than your daughter.
In particular this one from Lily Maynard, mother of a 15 year old who wanted to transition - not that you are in the same position, but it's about keeping the conversation going.
4thwavenow.com/2016/12/17/a-mums-voyage-through-transtopia-helps-her-daughter-desist/
Also recommend Lily's twitter feed @lilylilymaynard

Datun Fri 17-Feb-17 13:40:56

fairy

That link was incredible. It made me cry.

Alyosha Fri 17-Feb-17 16:45:55

I should RTFT, but honestly I think you might have to accept that she will disagree with you for at least the next 6-10 years. Keep telling her what you know to be true, earnestly and with facts. She may find herself in a situation soon where everyone else is more radical than her & use some of your arguments.

I only came around to mother's way of thinking about Trans people when I was 24 and had started reading Mumsnet and other gender critical sources.

Ironically I was reading MN to see what all of the nasty feminists had to say about those poor Trans people. Reading MN completely changed my mind and bam! I became a semi-Rad Fem.

whoputthecatout Fri 17-Feb-17 18:16:45

"When you are 16 you think your parents know nothing. By the time you are 20 you are amazed how much they've learned."

Hold on to this thought OP smile

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Bitofacow Fri 17-Feb-17 19:49:53

And many teenagers have views they hold on to an believe in. Many teenagers are capable of rational thinking.

I was told i was a socialist because I was young. I have not changed my views.

Patronising teenagers will not help and does not make you right.

Good god! When teenagers say to me their parents don't listen, I defend the parents and say they are just trying to put a different point of view. I am so wrong. You know you are right and can't wait to say "I told you so." I may change this advice I give based on this thread.

Stopmakingsense Fri 17-Feb-17 21:49:12

This (I think from Miranda Yardley?) is very good! OP my DD says she is trans - too long a story - but the only thing I am glad of is telling all my kids not to do anything irreversible until they are 25. Just praying she will heed that.

Datun Fri 17-Feb-17 23:35:28

Alyosha

Ironically I was reading MN to see what all of the nasty feminists had to say about those poor Trans people. Reading MN completely changed my mind and bam! I became a semi-Rad Fem.

This was me. Not particularly about the trans, but just wondering what are feminists banging on about. Initially I was as little intimidated because everyone is so educated in feminism and I'm not.

The lightbulb moment for me was the misogyny in the trans ideology. I had witnessed casual sexism, but when I read posts from trans-women, casual sexism became a dot in the distance and rank misogyny made me a feminist.

I went from 'this is how things are' to bloody hell that's a bit sexist, to OMG where has all this misogyny come from, to radical feminist almost overnight.

Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your view point, I now see casual sexism for the misogyny it is.

ArcheryAnnie Sat 18-Feb-17 12:07:14

FarmerJiles as well as the websites you've been recommended here, I'd go with the "trans activism is homophobia" angle. Partly because it's something I fervently believe, and partly because it talks the kind of language a tumblr teenager might listen to.

Because trans activism is amazingly, retro-tastically homophobic, and my attitude to teenagers who espouse it is that I can't believe that they are being so reactionary, either advocating for gay conversion therapy (telling gay men they are straight women, and telling butch lesbians they are straight men), or with autogynephilic crossdressing men, telling lesbians what straight men have told them for years: that they must accept dick. Teenagers should be more progressive than us, not less!

GangstaRat Sat 18-Feb-17 12:14:48

Isn't it good that she's not a bigot? I know MN is very transphobic/misogynistic (multiple debates on here pointing out the ways in which transphobia hurts ciswomen have led to posters freely admitting they'd advocate hurting ciswomen in order to punish trans people - for example the posts about women being subject to genital inspection to be allowed to use a public toilet, and a few posters said everyone should have to carry mandatory proof of sex cards which they would have to show on demand to use a public toilet).

It's one thing to encourage critical thinking but it sounds like you want tips for how to turn your child into a bigot!

Ouriana Sat 18-Feb-17 12:23:44

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

venusinscorpio Sat 18-Feb-17 12:27:43

That is such utter bullshit, Gangsta. Don't be so idiotic. Like that has ever been seriously suggested by the reasonable posters in feminism chat.

venusinscorpio Sat 18-Feb-17 12:29:00

And fuck right off with "ciswomen". You have no right to assume anyone's gender, do you?

Ouriana Sat 18-Feb-17 12:32:44

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ArcheryAnnie Sat 18-Feb-17 12:33:34

Wow, GangstaRat. Receipts or it didn't happen. (Spoiler: it didn't happen.)

Also, who are the "ciswomen" you are talking about? Are you - gasp! - assigning gender designations to people who haven't consented to them? You do know that's actualfax violence, right?

TiggyD Sat 18-Feb-17 12:39:04

She's really sucked in and not able to see an alternative view

She probably thinks the same about you OP. You refer to the topic as "the trans thing", use "MtT" & "FtT", and mention that "boys wear skirts"in the school. It doesn't seem like you're going to be willing to look at your own beliefs but expect her to change hers. It's not a discussion you're after as that implies a 2 way thing.

And GanstaRat please don't make up crap.

TiggyD Sat 18-Feb-17 12:42:46

how many times do you people have to be told just how fucking offensive that is?

It's as offensive to use "cis" as a prefix as it is to refer to trans people by the wrong pronoun. It's allowed on Mumsnet as long as it's not intended to offend an individual.

ArcheryAnnie Sat 18-Feb-17 12:55:47

Well, I as an individual am totally bloody offended by the idea that anyone who doesn't identify as trans is automatically "cis".

(And I don't think that "offence" is necessarily a reason not to say something, I am just using your definition of what's allowed or not.)

venusinscorpio Sat 18-Feb-17 13:00:50

A discussion doesn't have to be a "two way thing" in the sense that all opinions are equally valid. I'm sure we can think of lots of hypotheticals where that isn't the case. What is required is to listen to the other person and engage with their points. It's perfectly fine to only disagree and challenge.

Bitofacow Sat 18-Feb-17 13:25:23

Cis used = blue touch paper. Rational thought is gone, offensive, overwrought invective ensues.

A discussion does not indeed have to imply views will be changed, but other people's views have to be respected even if you don't agree with them. This lack of respect is absolutely the case frequently on MN trans discussions.

venusinscorpio Sat 18-Feb-17 13:27:04

Both ways, I think you'll find, Bitof.

venusinscorpio Sat 18-Feb-17 13:28:42

And no, you don't have to respect views you think are stupid. The view holders are different to the views.

venusinscorpio Sat 18-Feb-17 13:33:28

And yes, I find the loaded term "cis", frequently used to put women down, as offensive as non dysphoric transpeople and trans allies appear to find "misgendering".

Ouriana Sat 18-Feb-17 13:35:18

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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