Sexism? Racism? Both?

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I'm posting here to restrain myself from again challenging someone on FB. He never listens to me anyway and he's married to someone I love...

He posted something saying that the Black actor (Dixon) in Hamilton who called out Pence is sexist. Allegedly Dixon has made comments on Twitter about 'white women' and therefore it's ironic that he challenged Pence. This posted by a man who repeatedly makes awful sexist jokes about women on FB.

Then I thought about all the men who are soooo worried about Sharia law. They only seem to care about women's safety and rights when a) the men 'threatening' them are Black or Muslim or both and b) when caring makes no impact on their own ability to be sexist. Oh and c) when the women threatened are white.

So is the main issue here racism, sexism or both? Is it just a privilege soup. Or, my favourite explanation; that men just see women as objects which they own and their racism means that they see Black or Muslim men as a threat to their 'property'.

[WindPowerRanger]

Someone posted something on here recently about the Daily Mail using women as a 'vector' through which (by which?) to attack other unfavoured groups. I thought it was a very good way of putting it.

It happens a lot, and I think it is what your FB contact is doing. Apparent distaste about sexism is the means of attacking an even more disliked group.Here, black men. It has the advantage of coming across, at least superficially, as liberal and principled.

It is both racist and sexist (more the latter than the former I think), but is mostly just opportunistic.

Whenever anyone I meet bangs on about Sharia law in that way, I ask them if they have problems with the Beth Din. That puzzles them.

[Xenophile]

Or the consistory courts.

[Pizanfan]

Before I answer and give an opinion, what do you think of the other thread on this board about the Women in Dubai being arrested for reporting rape?

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I think it's utterly horrific. Why?

[Pizanfan]

If you think that, then are men sexist for thinking the same as you, and not wanting Shria law in the UK, because of it's detrimental effects on our rights as women?

[TenaciousOne]

Pizanfan what if those same men are saying a woman deserved to be raped as she was walking down the wrong street at the wrong time?

[MrsTerryPratchett]

No, I think that men who wouldn't give a tiny shit about Ched Evans, Brock Turner or those rapists and regularly come over all misogynist themselves will suddenly become Germaine Greer when the 'threat' is a Black or Muslim man making the same kind of comments they would.

My 'friend' on FB regularly demeans women on FB and thinks it's ironic that another man does the same on Twitter.

[AlabasterSnowball]

I've noticed this too. Following the Rotherham cases and similar many brown skinned and black skinned men are judged as if that's the norm by setions of the press and society. But men like Ched Evans or Brock Turner were just unlucky.
It doesn't feel protective it feels possessive

[Pizanfan]

Your missing some very valid assumptions by those men though...

1. The UK system is as fair as any worldwide when it comes to sex, race, religion etc. So therefore you CANNOT call Ched Evans a rapist. I dislike the bugger as much as you do, but he was found innocent by our own courts.
   
   
2. Sharia law isn't one black (Not sure why you mention black, as theres probably as many white muslims as black) muslim saying what he'd like to do, it's a systematic opression of women in some of the worst ways imaginable! How in any mindset you don't want any man wordlwide no matter of colour race or religion to oppose that on our behalf is beyond me.
   
   I don't know Dixon very well, but after reading a few of his tweets I can say I dislike him too:
   
   'St. Patty's day weekend is like Christmas for black dudes who like white chicks. Happy holidays boys.'
   
   'the problem is ho's aren't what they used to be. If ho game would step up, cats wouldn't get distracted.'
   
   And retweeted a guy who claimed 'Married white women are the easiest sport'.
   
   I actually agree with what he said about Pence (This guy is scarily evil), but I'd agree with you're friends husband in that Dixon is a dick. If your friends husband joked similarly to Dixon I'd say he's a dick too.
   
   I'd also point out that Sharia law and this argument are 2 very different discussions, one is a backward sense of humour needing changing, the other is a terrifying prospect to woman kind worldwide!

[Ellie7878]

Then I thought about all the men who are soooo worried about Sharia law. They only seem to care about women's safety and rights when a) the men 'threatening' them are Black or Muslim or both and b) when caring makes no impact on their own ability to be sexist. Oh and c) when the women threatened are white.

I think you've nailed it there. All those men who would defend a white rapist at the drop of the hat suddenly aligning themselves with the sisterhood when reacting to Rotherham. Funny how racists can have such a sudden conversion to women's rights. It's also a kind of psychological opportunism: you get to project all your own misogyny onto a different racial demographic. I can see through all that faux-feminist, faux-liberal, anti-Muslim bullshit a mile off. That isn't to say there are not issues with certain very traditional Muslim communities, but unless criticism of them is couched within a wider critique of cross-ethnic misogyny then it's just racism, pure and simple.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

Or the consistory courts

I really don't think that is relevant given their powers are little more than monitoring conduct of the clergy and dealing with buildings.

Today, the principal business of consistory courts is now the dispensing of faculties dealing with churchyards and church property, although they retain the power to hear the trial of clergy (below the rank of bishop) accused of immoral acts or misconduct

"Consistory court" on @Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consistory_court?wprov=sfta1

So I have no more issue with consistory law than I would have with the Law Society's codes of conduct.

So far as Beth Din, no religious law should trump the civil law of the land. I don't think I have ever heard calls that Rabinical law should be incorporated into UK law. On the other hand, whilst they are a tiny minority there are extremists looking to create a caliphate under Sharia law.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

It's not actually about whether Sharia law is sexist (it is). Or whether Dixon's tweets were sexist (they were). It's about why some men, including my FB knobber, appear only to be able to see sexism when it has a Black and/or Muslim face.

And I think PP were right. They think it gives them a liberal veneer to their right-wing prejudices.

[Pizanfan]

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

50% of Muslims polled want homosexuality to be illegal. That is terrifying, although I understand the limitations of the survey.

Also the other part that gets me, is 78% wanted to become included within society, but that wouldn't include inclusive schooling, or certain laws, WTF?!?!

[MrsTerryPratchett]

And Pence wants women to have no access to abortions or contraception. And he wanted women accessing abortions to be forced to bury or cremate the fetus. And he's going to be Vice President.

[Pizanfan]

So all white men are racists and trying to appear liberal to mask their racism? I see why it could seem that way, but I can't get on board that men are inherantly like this. I would suggest they are fearfull of their families like the rest of us, this guy clearly see's the hypocricy in Dixons moral standpoint, but doesn't understand his own, lets be honest we are all guilty of that!

Firstly I don't care about the agenda, when it comes to what I could or couldn't do under another another law system I will accept every persons condemnation.

PS Please stop using 'Black and / or Muslim' as a term to describe a world where there are a thousand different races, religions etc... I know Black and Muslim are popular victims right now because of the media, but there are so many more than just these.

[Pizanfan]

Pratchett

Try engaging your friends husband on Pences stance, you may find he finds them as disgusting as we do.

[Xenophile]

There are blatant everyday kinds of racism as well within healthcare. Here is just one example.

And yes, the very same men who go nuts about the treatment of women under Sharia seem just fine and dandy about white men treating women in pretty much exactly the same way. Which also raises the question of why they automatically assume that all Muslims have brown skin, in itself a racist assumption.

[IAmAmy]

I agree with the vast majority of the OP's points but do think any man who makes disparaging comments specifically about "white women" is (though I dislike using this word) "problematic" to say the least.

[Xenophile]

Sorry, that was to MrsTP, obvs.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Try reading my posts Piz. I said nothing approaching what you think I said.

[IAmAmy]

I think the issues are both racism and sexism. Maybe some white men cover their sexism through racism, in the sense they can become outraged about violence against women/misogyny when it's perpetrated by men of colour which gives them a vessel to attack those men and often their "culture", seemingly under the banner of (white) women's rights, yet those same men will often defend or not be in the slightest bothered about the same crimes committed by white men. There's also something quite patriarchal/possessive about it I find, sort of like "those" men attacking "our" women.

[Pizanfan]

MTP

I don't think I was responding to you, and certainly wasn't accusing (except the black/muslim thing).

'women under Sharia seem just fine and dandy about white men treating women in pretty much exactly the same way'

hahahahaha ye, I can't tell you how I hate a white man stoning in the UK regularly because i've had the gaul to drive a car, or those white men who refuse to speak to me, or allow me to go for a swim...

'why they automatically assume that all Muslims have brown skin, in itself a racist assumption.'

Where exactly do you live, I would suggest moving. Guys do not assume muslim skin colour on a large scale, muslims come in all different races, as any intellegent person would recognise.

[FreshwaterSelkie]

You're not wrong, MrsTP.

Shining example was the amount of people who fell out of the woodwork to condemn authorities in the wake of the Cologne New Year's Eve assaults.

It's very hard to discuss, and I find it hard to articulate my position - because there are degrees of sexism, and they interact with racism and religious bigotry in ways that I'm not best placed, as a white atheist women, to talk about. It's a minefield. I do think that supporting women's rights is seen by certain men as a sort of tool to be deployed when it suits their argument, then quietly dropped when it stops being useful.

[Pizanfan]

Amy

Please view people on their individual actions, you have such a skewed world view that you are really going to struggle to build relationships with the attitude of 'All men hate', and 'all white men hate more'.

If a white man is a dick to you, call him a dick, if a black woman is a dick to you call her a dick, don't label billions of people, it won't help you living a fullfilling and satisfying life!

[MrsTerryPratchett]

And I do think that to an extent all white people have to examine themselves for racism and all men for sexism. Because we are all swimming in that sea. Actually I also wonder whether we all have internalized issues as well.

So although I wouldn't say that all white men are sexist and racist, I would be very suspicious of one that was very very sure he wasn't.