Best response to this?(22 Posts)
Ongoing FB situation - male acquaintance training to be a counsellor (I feel this is relevant since he'll likely interact with women on this subject at some point). Seems to have a bee in his bonnet about flirting and how unfair it all is!
"When a lady flirts with somebody they don't know, it is fun, but when a man does it, it is harassment… I mean, I'm not complaining, I just hate the double standards…"
I still despair...
Looks like he doesn't understand the difference between flirting and harassment.
Tell him flirting that's unwanted evolves to be harassment and it's not gender specific.
I'd just unfollow his posts, I've never seen a Facebook confrontation end well.
If this is as bad as it gets then I'd say you have a group of extremely level headed and sensible Facebook friends (far more so than mine )
If you were going to say something then maybe just say you agree that harassment excused as "flirting" is never acceptable from anyone of either sex?
People that post stuff like that on FB tend to be GFs. They want you to comment because they get off on the reaction they believe they have caused. You have four options open to you:
1) Ignore his twattery and move on
2) Respond to his twattery, but remember the pigeon chess meme.
3) Unfriend him, or
4) If it would be undiplomatic for you to unfriend him, unfollow him so you don't see his stupid posts.
Maybe point out that flirting is a two-way street and that men aren't "flirting" with a woman if she doesn't reciprocate. To be diplomatic acknowledge that if the woman is flirting and the male isn't returning it that is obviously harassment, too. Problem of course is that men love to flirt so this latter scenario is much rarer than the other way round, hence why the stereotype this guy mentions exists in the first place.
What a pity that a counselor cannot tell the difference...
I think Xeno has is it spot on, and I think I'll keep that list of actions as a reminder to not get sucked into FB squabbles!
Option 5: Post the pigeon chess meme.
More inflammatory, though.
I pointed out the difference between flirting and harassment and haven't been back to look since... this is ongoing because he continuously posts things and tags me in them so I respond. I like a good debate but this particular thing just enrages me because it's just so shortsighted and ridiculous. I've been raped and assaulted more than once and the idea that he thinks that a woman flirting with him is tantamount to assault is insurmountable. Perhaps I do need to unfollow
Ask him to stop tagging you.
Put your settings that you have to accept tags before they go om your tineline
If he doesn't, then you know what he thinks of women's boundaries
Sorry for what happened to.you. Does he know?
Yes I did actually comment that I thought this constant comparison of flirting and harassment minimises sexual assault and that I'd been through it myself and found it pretty damn offensive that he thinks someone who flirts with him to try and get him to spend money is anything like having your clothes ripped in public in broad daylight. His response was: "you're forgetting the cases where they don't even ask the man to stop and report them… and it may even be something as small as a simple comment, and it may not be offensive… most women might just see it as a compliment… And need I mention the whistle?" (we've had a previous discussion where a lot of his female friends were having a Paris Lees moment
I'm terrible at this stuff since I struggle with holding my tongue even though I know it doesn't matter what I say. I bite every time... I did switch off tags being allowed but I still see them and end up taking the bait.
He sounds like a complete wanker. Sorry not helpful at all.
If you do want to respond to him there are some great arguments on the Cat calling thread which might help. Mind you that thread is also a good example of how you can go down the rabbit hole on this!
Is he actually a friend in RL? Dump him and block on FB if not. And if he is. Dump him in RL after giving him apiece of your mind. Don't feel you need to hold your toungue. Women are condioned into putting with this shit quietly.
Your Facebook friend has presented a pretty low hanging fruit argument there I would reply with something along the lines of:
"Whilst it's tempting to view female empowerment through the lens of equality and things being 'fair'. Your point is quite attractive. We don't want to treat people differently would we? Of course not!
However unpack the idea just a little and it only works when the surface of the issue is not so much even scratched, but barely tickled. When we look at the context of flirting and apply more in depth criteria it becomes a very different picture indeed. Even if our primary objective is to reach peak fairness.
When a man interacts with a woman there are different forces at play for both. Different thoughts going on under the hood. We could analyse this till the cows come home but let's restrict ourselves to a main headline just to make the case. When a woman interacts with a man she is having to weigh up the historic and present contexts of men and women's interaction. This is a context of violence, both sexual and just plain old fashioned violence. This is exacerbated by the average disparity of size and strength between the sexes.
If any woman weighs all this up and finds a man she is comfortable to 'flirt' with then that's cool. Everything can sail off to the land of mutual and reciprocal interaction. A man making the same choice only really needs to ask one question? Am I attracted to this woman?
Now given this is it fair to hold men and women to the precise same standards? Well yes I suppose it is, but only if you are prepared to don massive blinkers and ignore all the hoops many women need to go through in order to get to the same place as men naturally inhabit.
If fairness is our goal surely the fair course is rather than trumpet namalt, we examine where women are, what they have to contend with, and rather than say "I'd never harass a woman, I'm one of the good things ones!" men take stock and realise that the inequalities women face befoul and contaminate even healthy everyday interactions.
The problem in reality affects us all, and leaving women to deal with a problem not even of their own making all on their own is neither fair nor equal.
So he knows you've been raped and still tags you on this stuff? He can't tell the difference between flirting and harassment? He's more than just a goady fucker.
Keep records, inform any professional body he signs up with.
hopefully his training will make him reflect more on his feelings and opinions sometimes people struggle when they are facing their own internal conflict on what they have always thought to be right and then realise they have been part of the problem themselves
but he may not change and I would not engage in any form of conversation with him about the subject. its more that he is goading you that is the issue
some highlights of what I heard when training, sometimes men are pushed by their partners to be violent, women will use sex to get what they want and then change their mind to have power over their partner but at times its too late both have completely let go of these opinions and think very differently
Ok so lets frame this context little if you wouldn't mind...
He's training to be a councellor, in what exactly? There could be a few things he could be training in.
He's also tagging you in populist arguments that are trendy currently? Are you responding regularly to his tagging, I mean have you told him to stop, or do you want him to stop?
Are you here for ammo to use against him? For a discussion on this topic? or to work how to to deal with the situation?
Finally, please ignore the people telling you to effect his carreer prospects because he has been insensitive, and holds a differing opinion than you! Unless you feel he has done something illegal, or seriously morally and ethically questionable, the argument between you and he is just that.
As someone pointed out, ignore, unfriend, engage or unfollow.
As we have daily and sometimes hourly evidence.
thanks Dervel - I'm terrible at putting the context thing into words so that really helps.
I've not told him to stop, because I have this personal rule to always engage in order to educate. It's just a shame that comes with a price tag attached in this instance. I have no idea what counselling body he's under (he can't spell the word either!) but he is constantly posting cryptic things that make his life sound like some sort of gangland fan-fiction - this one was possibly directed at me:
"I refuse to have my honour questioned by those who are themselves, without trust…"
and then there's the daily ones that go like this:
"...And then… one prick comes up to me trying to sell me steak, and whatever… pissed out of his head, and not taking no for an answer. Almost kicked off. Then man's trying to tell me how he just got out of prison I'm supposed to watch my back? * 10 minutes later* What do you know… Man is outside the pub with his case of tings and just clocked me coming out, and couldn't apologise enough telling me how much he loves me… punani… Man wants to give it, but soon as I am there, man shits bricks"
He also posts daily inspirational quotes in dm's to me and in my mental health group on FB. Nobody ever responds but he just keeps on keeping on. He says people constantly thank him for 'fixing their problems', which makes me pretty
I'd never want to ruin his career, I just find it odd how people with certain sorts of attitudes would want to be in a career where they'll be forced to see things from the other side every day. I'm really just wanting a discussion about it.
It's not your job to educate the world, honest. You have the same number of hours in your day as bill gates or Sheryl sandberg. Spend them wisely, on things that enrich or entertain you
The other things he has posted sound irredeemably tedious, TBH. Focus on people you like more?!
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