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The Glass ceiling, really?

(60 Posts)
Pizanfan Tue 08-Nov-16 22:39:53

I have lurked here for a while, but havn't really had summoned the courage to post until now (I have noticed a lot of new posters asking for people to be nice, or kind etc).

I can't seem to keep this to myself anymore, and my OH dismisses my attempts to bring the subject up...

Hillary Clinton, playing the righteous feminist, and building a campaign on 'love' but knowing nothing but hate. I keep hearing prominant feminists talk about her being the great hope, but her history, actions, and words are so anti feminist I get frustrated when I hear this twaddle!

Apologies if you are a fan, I mean no offence, I just feel like this issue is going to burn me up inside if I don't get it out, and I suppose I am hoping for reasons I am in part blind to any good she is doing, or maybe even some agreement from people here.

Not the greatest way to introduce myself to this section (It is very intimidating here btw), but rant over, please let me know if i'm reading too much into this issue.

Thank you

NewlySkinnyMe Tue 08-Nov-16 22:42:25

In what why is she anti feminist to you?

Whether or not she herself is a feminist in thought or actions you could argue her course in life, becoming the first ever female president, is a very feminist issue and one to highlight.

YonicProbe Tue 08-Nov-16 22:51:50

Hi Pusan and welcome to MN and FWR.

since I started a thread about Hillary with glass ceiling in the title, perhaps you are responding to me?

As said, I am pleased that there is a female presidential candidate for the first time. I don't think Clinton or trump is perfect, though I consider trump far more anti women and anti feminist of the two.

But I don't think a woman should have to be perfect to be President; no man ever has been.

YonicProbe Tue 08-Nov-16 22:52:12

Pizan! Thanks autocorrect...

Pizanfan Tue 08-Nov-16 22:55:43

Hi Newlyskinnyme

Thanks for commenting.

Well I'm not sure she is anti feminist, but I honestly believe she plays feminist, and would happily call herself an MRA if she thought it would get her what she wants.

Is becoming the first female POTUS really that important? I mean in the grand scheme of things aren't there 30 or so female heads of state world wide at this current time, some great women, some not so great. Why does the world revolve around the US in this election?

Obama was different, with the US history of oppression of blacks, voting a head of state who was a great representation of his race, but more importantly was a great representitive of his country made absolute sense. Piggy backing off Obama's success seems cheap, and well Clintons actions over the last few decade hardly coincide with her recent views.

I guess I'm just annoyed that she is duping millions of people.

Showmeagain Tue 08-Nov-16 22:58:48

Hhmmm first woman president but she should be better than any other and all other of the previous 44. So how is that being a feminist? It's a huge thing. And she should be judged on her abilities as z president as a politician and NOT as a woman.

That's how true feminism works. Not raising the bar higher for a woman at the get go

That's how I can admire but despise Thatcher. Admire for breaking the glass celing despise as a politician. I also have admiration for men politicians that I don't politically agree with.

My2centsworth Tue 08-Nov-16 22:59:48

This is the meme of many memes that best explains the glass ceiling Clinton is stuck under.

Pure unadulterated misogyny, the double standard that has been levelled against her in this campaign. He is criticised for his own hateful words and actions and she is criticised for those of her husband, oh and an email server.

OlennasWimple Tue 08-Nov-16 23:00:23

I'd be interested in hearing more about why you feel this way about her: what specifically leads you to conclude she is duplicitous, for example?

But I confess that you lost me when you wondered what the big deal is about a female POTUS - do you really mean that you don't understand why this is so important?

YonicProbe Tue 08-Nov-16 23:02:19

Yes, the first female POTUS is very important.

How is she duping people? Politicians say shit to get elected is hardly out there as a strategy (I don't think she is faking feminism, but that's your contention if I understand correctly)

Do you prefer Trump?

Pizanfan Tue 08-Nov-16 23:02:42

Hi Yonic probe.

Thanks for the welcome,

I wasn't responding to any other thread really, although noted the interest.

I agree 100% that there is no such thing as a perfect candidate, and that I know I could never bring myself to put Trumps name on a ballot, however at least Trump has put himself out there. He has said a lot of questionable things, but he has either apologised or stood by them, and well I wouldn't call him anti women, he is a dollar guy, and he will promote or screw over anyone in the aim of getting more money, regardless of sex.

Like I said, Hillary as a surface candidate (female) is a good step, but I really don't think she will be who a lot of people think. There are so many dark skeletons, bad behaviour, and potential criminal activity, it feels like her campaign is based on hatred, pure hatred of anyone who doesn't want her in office.

YonicProbe Tue 08-Nov-16 23:04:27

"Piggy backing off Obama's success seems cheap"

Pretty much all presidents endorse their potential successor and campaign for them, though - Clinton/Gore etc. And Hillary was SOS - if you think obama's presidency has been a success, she had a senior role in that administration.

YonicProbe Tue 08-Nov-16 23:05:49

Ok, think we'll have to agree to differ if you've identified clinton's campaign as the one based on hate.

See you on the other side of the result!

M0stlyHet Tue 08-Nov-16 23:06:35

Let's see - one of the candidates has made remarks about grabbing women by the pussy and getting away with it because they're "a star".

One of the candidates has said they'd try to overturn Roe versus Wade.

One of the candidates said women were "disgusting" for breastfeeding.

One of the candidates sexualised their own daughter, describing her as "voluptuous."

One of the candidates has said women who have abortions should be "punished."

Hint - that candidate is not Hillary Clinton.

Showmeagain Tue 08-Nov-16 23:06:43

Errmm so what are the skeletons. And what politicians don't have them? And is it because she's a woman that it matters? She's not madonna so therefore she's a defiled? I think you should check your conditioning. Seriously

YonicProbe Tue 08-Nov-16 23:08:55

m.youtube.com/watch?v=9v97xH6Bof0&feature=youtu.be

A bit like 2cents meme, but in video form!

Showmeagain Tue 08-Nov-16 23:08:58

Oh and talking about grabbing puss really is anti women. Either you are far too conditioned to see or you are unable. Either way I am out. Boom

0phelia Tue 08-Nov-16 23:11:52

She's better than Trump!
I'm not a fan. She is awful.

In about 6 jours time we will find out that America has it's first female president and I guess it's about time there was one.

It's a reason to be half pleased that Clinton, May and Sturgeon are three women simultaneoudly in our most powerful positions (but I would chew my arm off rather than vote for any of them!)

Pizanfan Tue 08-Nov-16 23:12:19

Hi showmeagain and my2centsworth

Firstly, I need to explain that oversimplified memes are a little embarrassing, they are designed tools to specify what the creator wants you to think so I'll not discuss any such thing. (Please don't take offence).

I'm not comparing Hillary to the 44 presidents that precede her, I'm simply holding her to the standard of her opposition, such as Berny Sanders, Trump, and in my opinion it would be fare to cmpare her to the current president.

I think we all agree this cycle is going to be the American audience selecting the best of a bad bunch, yet she is being particularly divisive currently. So this is not me judging her as a woman, it's me judging her as a 2016 presidential candidate.

I'm not sure anyone can claim that she has had 'double standard' levelled against her, when she has the establishment, the overwhelming finances, the media, and the worldwide opinion in her favour. She has merely squandered all this with her own actions.

AmeliaJack Tue 08-Nov-16 23:12:28

Puzan

Can you explain what you mean by the following:

"however at least Trump has put himself out there"

I can't work out whether you are implying that Clinton's 30 years of public service weren't putting herself out there or whether you mean that Trump should somehow be commended just for standing?

As for Trump being "anti women" you don't think that thinking that just because you are a rich and famous man it's ok to sexually assault women is a problem in this context?

0phelia Tue 08-Nov-16 23:13:32

Trump the cunt.

LassWiTheDelicateAir Tue 08-Nov-16 23:19:31

I don't particularly care whether Clinton is a feminist or not. She is however not a dangerous lunatic.

Were her opponent say, John McCain, I'd be disappointed a Republican won rather than a Democrat but it would not be a disaster. Trump is a nightmare.

YonicProbe Tue 08-Nov-16 23:21:04

"Firstly, I need to explain that oversimplified memes are a little embarrassing"

It's strange that you'd post something like this when you opened with saying that you found the section intimidating as you'd seen other newbies ask people to be nice or kind.

YuckYuckEwwww Tue 08-Nov-16 23:21:07

SHE doesn't have to be a feminist in order for the possibility of her losing to Trump to be a feminist issue

she could be the most anti-feminst woman in the world, that still doesn't change the fact that if Trump were a woman and Hilary were a man, Trump would barely be in the running with his credentials and behaviour during the campagne, and Hilary would be laughing her way to a landslide!

Feminists do not just care about how the world responds to other feminists Feminsm is about the treatment of all women, even the anti-feminist ones

Pizanfan Tue 08-Nov-16 23:21:52

Sorry if I don't respond to everyones comments, they are coming thick and fast.

Yonic probe

I didn't say it was just her campaign that is hatefull, bth candidates I think are humiliating the process, and the US in their hate campaigns, similarly to how remain and brexit sides made a fool of the British public. However the American versions are so focused on character assasination, and splitting the population into categories, it'S hard not to feel for the American public!

Ophelia

I agree with your comments, although I don't despise May nearly as much as Sturgeon, who in my opinion is trying to disrupt Scottish life with her 'look at me' routine. And again, you are right that it's about time the US had a female leader, however I believe in the right leader regardless of sex, race, religion etc...

LassWiTheDelicateAir Tue 08-Nov-16 23:26:31

Sturgeon is obnoxious and self-serving, driven by her monomania. She is a terrible leader. The only good thing about her is she dumped Trump from being some sort of business ambassador- an appointment which Eck should (but won't) hang his head in shame for.

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