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Is the new "self identifying" use of the term "woman" a form of cultural appropriation?

(30 Posts)
LoveMyPatio Wed 02-Nov-16 21:31:27

In that a previously oppressed group has had their group name taken by the oppressing group for their own use?

I might be wildly off mark, but was just musing.

Thelilywhite Wed 02-Nov-16 21:50:17

I agree. Being a born woman and all that entails is very much part of the culture in which we are raised.

AlistairSim Wed 02-Nov-16 21:51:35

Yes. Absolutely.

LoveMyPatio Wed 02-Nov-16 21:55:04

Hmm, interesting. I was expecting to be shouted down!

XinnaJane Wed 02-Nov-16 21:57:06

Yes. It seems utterly bizarre but is absolutely true

venusinscorpio Thu 03-Nov-16 07:52:45

You're not off the mark at all, that's exactly what it is. But apparently women aren't allowed to mind.

ChocChocPorridge Thu 03-Nov-16 08:03:28

Yes, absolutely is cultural appropriation - down to fetishising our traditional modes of dress, how we speak and our bodies.

lizzieoak Thu 03-Nov-16 08:07:27

I'm not sure what I think about this. I know it drives my (early 20's) Dd wild as she feels people who've grown up male haven't had to deal w any of the nonsense we have vis a vis sexism & are just taking the nice aspects of extreme ladyhood & leaving the naff bits behind.

EmpressOfTheSevenOceans Thu 03-Nov-16 08:07:53


venusinscorpio Thu 03-Nov-16 08:12:13

Your daughter sounds great, Lizzie. Get her to post on mumsnet! I'm encouraged that some young people see past this bollocks.

venusinscorpio Thu 03-Nov-16 08:12:43

Apologies for double post blush

venusinscorpio Thu 03-Nov-16 08:13:38

How weird is that, my double post disappeared the second time I refreshed shock

CharlieSierra Thu 03-Nov-16 08:14:06


SomeDyke Thu 03-Nov-16 12:26:38

The same cultural appropriation applies to lesbians and gay men as well, although in that case it goes further, in that lesbians who state they would prefer to date other women without a penis, are told they are weird or transphobic. That focusing on genitals is weird. That saying you are attracted to the same sex, not the same gender, is transphobic.

And it seems to be lesbians who are getting the brunt of this. Even gay men who have embracing the whole concept are reticent as to when they last performed cunnilingus on a boyfriend, and not surprisingly straight men don't seem to get it in the neck if they won't date trans women, or be told that not wanting to have sex with a woman with a penis is transphobic................

From being around the gay scene for many years, it feels particularly annoying that a group of people who were formerly made welcome on the gay scene because we could appreciate they felt safer there (and cos gay people back then tended to be okay with not conforming to gender, and not phased by the sight of a male in a dress, and where the drag queens were more likely to give make-up tips than any agro :-) ) -- that now some of the activists arev trying to redefine what being a homosexual is, as well as trying to rewrite gay history (trans activists defaced the Stonewall monument and are also trying to claim that it was transwomen who started it all anyway................). It's like a guest that you invited, not just trashing the place, but now they are trying to redecorate and charge you rent as well.........................

venusinscorpio Thu 03-Nov-16 12:47:26

I think the majority of late transitioning trans "lesbians" only want to call themselves lesbians because it validates them as a woman. They appear much more similar to entitled heterosexual middle aged men (like the ones that think they now deserve a younger partner now their wife has got older - there's a thread by one today) than any lesbian I've ever met.

And of course the useful idiots lap it all up. The poor things, they've spent decades in the closet and in the wrong body.

0phelia Thu 03-Nov-16 14:07:36

I'm with you OP. Being born female has meaning. The trans agenda perverts this meaning. Twists and erodes it. It's all about appearence.

VestalVirgin Thu 03-Nov-16 14:22:51

It is not so much appropriation as ... fethishizing the chains their forefathers put on women?

I mean, women have not much of a culture that is wholly separate from patriarchal mainstream culture. The term "woman" cannot be said to be used by us out of our own decision (would we be allowed to call ourselves something else in patriarchy?) and the same is true for words in other languages.

Males who identify as women of course want to invade what little women have of truly own culture (or what they imagine we have, like, I don't know, locker room talk among girls, not that I ever encountered any), but they also eagerly adopt all the things that are sold to women by male fashion designers.

It's like if the invaders had destroyed Native American cultures even more thoroughly than they did, and then appropriated glass beads and horses, insisting that riding a horse and wearing glass beads makes them Native American. (I know, not a perfect analogy, but ... you get what I mean?)

marvelousdcomics Thu 03-Nov-16 14:51:36

SomeDyke - that's exactly how my DD (14) feels! On my other thread I mentioned a horrific argument she bad with 5 trans* students, in which she said she wouldn't date a transwoman. She was called transphobic and a disgrace to the LGBTQ+ community. She is attracted to females - that's is, XX chromosomes.

I also agree with you OP.

CharlieSierra Thu 03-Nov-16 17:48:36

What SomeDyke said really resonates. It's men though, male privilege pure and simple. I glanced at the TV programme last night and there was a married, heterosexual cross dressing man who is sometimes Brian and sometimes Bree bemoaning the fact that 'trans' people are the last oppressed group. Dressed in his finery for the occasion obvs.

SomeDyke Thu 03-Nov-16 20:21:41

I caught a bit of a TV prog last night about cross-dressing bars in Japan -- which was intriguing in that from the clip I saw, in Japan cross-dressing is just seen as fun? Not an indication that you're actually trans or anything. Pure autogynephila? Or just a bit of a lark?

Of course, we have probably already seen the TRAs 'drag is oppressive cos it's taking the piss out of transwomen' line. I'll admit, on the gay scene I wasn't always a great fan of drag in terms of the 'taking the piss out of women' angle, but the former will probably get more coverage than the feminist objections ever did. Almost enough to have me defend drag as a unique part of gay (male) culture.............

Did drag kings survive the rise of the TRAs?

Prawnofthepatriarchy Thu 03-Nov-16 20:22:14

It's totally appropriative. Indisputably. Womanface is no more acceptable than blackface. Transwomen are not women. They are GNC males and carry their male socialization with them.

A transwoman on another thread caused some hilarity by saying that no one who wasn't trans was entitled to discuss the issue. This coming from someone who claims to know what it is to be a woman! grin

LoveMyPatio Thu 03-Nov-16 20:28:28

Some really interesting points have been made.

I know I'm only a newcomer to this corner of MN, but I'm glad I've found it smile

LoveMyPatio Thu 03-Nov-16 20:30:40

The thing that made me think of the above was that I suddenly noticed that the same people who are very quick to shout "transphobe" are just as quick to point out cultural appropriation.

Prawnofthepatriarchy Thu 03-Nov-16 20:33:29

Glad you like it. I'm only a recent arrival and I love it. Lots of clever, funny women round here.

LoveMyPatio Thu 03-Nov-16 20:35:05

(I agree. In fact in feeling a bit thick and uneducated in comparison!)

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