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Is SJW bullying good for the progression of feminism?

(101 Posts)
1DAD2KIDS Tue 18-Oct-16 00:40:15

The following video I think is very valid and makes some very good points. I think it identifies problems with some of the loudest and IMO most toxic elements who go under flag of feminism.

It's 14 mins long. Please watch if you have the time. It would be nice to know the loudest most hostile voices are not representactive of the movement.

almondpudding Tue 18-Oct-16 01:15:28

No, of course it isn't good for feminism.

There are a variety of toxic movements online, of which SJW are one. It's probably difficult to work out what the consequences of these movements is going to be, because social media is a new phenomenon.

I suspect online movements contribute to social divisions (such as feelings around Brexit) and mental health problems for those involved, but it's too early to understand them.

It's ridiculous to judge the huge range of global feminist groups and activities based on SJW.

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Oct-16 02:25:33

I have no idea what she's talking about tbh, or what Social Justice Warriors are. She doesn't really say what elements of feminism she's talking about. But there's quite a lot of misogyny in her speech. She seems to be against women who are sure of their own opinions or are angry. Where have we heard that before?

Thanks for telling us what's wrong with feminism (sort of). Perhaps you could care to elaborate on what you think the more toxic elements are and maybe we can rectify that for you?

FreshwaterSelkie Tue 18-Oct-16 07:55:23

I've skimmed through it, but I don't really get how this is an issue specific to feminism, when she spends most of the video talking about the etiquette of online debating and how everyone should conduct themselves as she wishes. I don't get the point. She's saying a lot of words, but not forming any kind of cohesive statement that I can make out.

Perhaps you could elaborate on what point you think this is making about feminism? Because if I fill in the blanks myself, what I'm left with is the impression that she, and possibly you, thinks feminists should STFU.

Who are the extremists? What are they saying? Why should they not say it?

1DAD2KIDS Tue 18-Oct-16 08:13:23

SJW (socail justic warriors) tends to refer to a group of an often aggressive type of activism. Now nothing wrong with activism or fighting for change. I think she shares a view that the is a vary vocal group who riding around on there high horse and acting in a very tyrannical way that I both not think is conducive to change or a very democratic way. I think there is a difference between being sure of your politics and aggressively attacking and trying to silence opposition to your views. She apposses a sort of form of almost mindless mob mentality that has been whipped up into a frenzy. People who will not open into debate about their politics and reason in a civilised forum. People who shout loudly and ram their politics down people. Any group who are not willing to be scrutinised or take part in open debate I believe is a dangerous stand point. This is the crowd this video poster is referring too. So can this sort of radical aggressive mentality be a good thing? Is acting in this way is a healthy way evoke people to understand the issues faced or does it act to isolate people from considering the issues?

Buy the way I am not judging feminism based on a small group of radical and bullies. Feminism to me is a broad spectrum of ideas and approaches. I think this is part the point of the video poster. My question is more aim at the contribution the type of person contributes to society

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Oct-16 08:15:26

Yes I agree with that Freshwater about the video. More about "women, be nicer to each other" but bizarrely she's fine with men being nasty and presumably sending death threats etc, just not women getting angry.

ChocChocPorridge Tue 18-Oct-16 08:23:17

I've met (online) way more non-feminist SJW than feminist ones - what makes you think that feminism in particular is bastion of SJW?

I think that co-opting other people's oppression, speaking on their behalf, is (to use the SJW's own term) problematic.

FreshwaterSelkie Tue 18-Oct-16 08:25:05

I still don't get your point. You're here on a feminist board asking feminists to justify themselves for you. You've not explained your position on feminism - are you concerned with violence against women, abortion, women's health? What is YOUR feminism? Then other people could tell you if they agreed with your position or not.

But coming to a feminist board and basically saying "yeah, feminists are angry and what is THAT all about eh?" isn't a constructive start to any debate, because to a feminist it sounds like every bloke that ever told her to pipe down and not be so shrill.

And this bit gets up my nose: "People who will not open into debate about their politics and reason in a civilised forum. People who shout loudly and ram their politics down people". Here's the thing. If you were to come here and ask a question, like your question on the army, then people would debate you, and maybe everyone would learn something. But you come here now, post a rambling video that says nothing except "people on the internet say stuff I don't like", and back it up with the comments I highlighted, then civilised debate is unlikely to occur. We're not here to educate you or justify ourselves. It's arrogant to presume that.

There might be an overlap between SJW and feminism, but one does not equal the other. In fact, when you say SJW, my image is of a white man who is happy to chuck feminism under the bus in the pursuit of perfectly lefty, inclusive politics.

1DAD2KIDS Tue 18-Oct-16 09:34:52

I am not asking for a justification on feminism. That would be rediduclous as feminism is a very umbrella term of a movement that is ever evolving. The video talks about a particular type group of people and the way they are acting. Personally I thought she made some valid points and highlight concerns about the true motivation of some. Personally I think their approach is very negative and counter productive. I was just interested on other people's view of the posters take on this?

As to the nature of the forum please enlightened me as I have seen no instructions on who can post on here. Is this not a forum where we can discuss how it expressed by some groups.

I agree using the SJW was a little stupid as yet again this is a very umbrella term.

Thank you scallopsrgreat for your views on the video and sharing your perspective of the message in the video. I will have to watch the video again because I did not get the bit where she said it's fine for men to get nasty. Of course after viewing again I could stand corrected but that was not the message I initially got.

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Oct-16 09:38:47

In fact the more I think about this video the more angry I get. (Btw I don't recommend anyone watch it. It is long quite boring and seems to be devoid of much point. Mind you I did mentally switch off at one point so I may have missed The Point then.)

She is a white, middle class, fairly good looking woman telling other women not to get angry about sexism and racism (I mean wtf??!!) because we live in a sexist and racist society so deal with it. There speaks someone who is not at all affected by racism and probably only minimally affected by sexism currently. She can afford to sit there in her ivory tower preaching to the unwashed about how misguided they are. Because from where she is sitting she can ignore the sexism and racism and her life carries on as usual.

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Oct-16 09:42:12

She didn't say it was fine for men to get nasty she said she was fine with men getting nasty. Or maybe she hasn't experienced death/rape threats from men?

scallopsrgreat Tue 18-Oct-16 09:48:18

And I'm not sure she did show the 'true motivation of some', whatever that means. That was certainly not what I took from the video.

So again, what are the 'toxic elements' of feminism you are talking about?

FreshwaterSelkie Tue 18-Oct-16 10:04:26

I don't get your point, 1Dad.

As to "the nature of the forum", it is a feminist forum, where we discuss feminism. I'm not the forum boss, so you can post whatever you like, but maybe you could first of all think how and when men's voices belong in feminism, and how that might affect what you post. That's a basic courtesy - as an atheist, I wouldn't expect to get a good welcome on the religion board if I breezed in and said "So you religious types don't half go on about Jesus a lot, eh?"

I'll just answer the question in your title then as I can't see the point of the video, as scallops highlights above. Is SJW bullying good for the progression of feminism? In my opinion, no, because your typical SJW is a lefty dudebro whose main interest in feminism is earning cookies for being right-on, and who will abandon it the first time it requires him to do anything harder than wear an "I'm a feminist" T-shirt.

Does that help?

1DAD2KIDS Tue 18-Oct-16 10:07:53

Not the message I got. For me it was not about justification of society's current position or that it's fine deal with it. More about the way a small but very vocal group address the situation. I don't think it's saying don't get angry. It more about understand the background of those from a different perspective to better engage them and to foster an will to change.

Also I believe she does address a group who deliberately stage manage and often take out of context videos of people to promote outrage based on manipulated picture. I believe that is wrong and abusive.

Must admit the poster is not the most charismatic of poster.

1DAD2KIDS Tue 18-Oct-16 10:12:11

FreshwaterSelkie thanks for your answer. You also give an invite into the possible insincere nature of a lot of SJW activists in relation to feminism. A point the video poster was making too.

1DAD2KIDS Tue 18-Oct-16 10:12:38


BertrandRussell Tue 18-Oct-16 10:15:14

I don't understand what she is asking people not to do. Or what she is asking people to do. I have no experience of the filming thing she is talking about-is it American? Or youth culture?

What I do know is, to paraphrase Rebecca West, "I don't know what a feminist is- all I know is that it is what I am called when I express views that distinguish me from a doormat"

FreshwaterSelkie Tue 18-Oct-16 10:17:36

You're not thinking of the context from a woman's perspective though, from a feminist perspective. Ever since women were fighting for the vote over a hundred years ago, we've been told if we were just "nicer", if we didn't get "angry", if we weren't so "shrill", if we were just a bit more "reasonable", then more men would get on board with feminism. But it doesn't work like that. It's just a distracting tactic. There is no correct amount of "nice" to be, because "nice" doesn't enable change.

Women don't struggle to find out what men's perspective on the world is. The default is male, the dominant voice is male. If women are louder, it's because we need to be loud to be heard. It can be upsetting to people who are used to women being deferent, submissive, keeping our voices down, because that's how women are taught to communicate. It can feel weird to men and women when women are assertive - it can read as bitchy and aggressive, when the same tone in a man would not. So why don't you SHOW us these examples of loud, abusive and "wrong" female voices and we can see if they really are...or if they're just not saying things that you like.

bigmouthstrikesagain Tue 18-Oct-16 10:39:37

This is a very culturally specific and disingenuous video. Clearly this particular liberal feminist, is feeling threatened by the out of control nature of internet based debate. Whining about public humiliation and shaming - who is the 'you' she is talking to? I have no clear idea, as I am not part of her particular corner of the US/ culture/ blogosphere whatever - there seems to be a lot of apologist language for unacceptable behaviour from Americans - and she feels that the sexist racist americans should be given a free pass and not criticised because they watched South Park?

I watched South Park and I still remember not to call people 'Fag' and is she also going to continue that approach to rapists - after all if they grew up in a sexist society they are not to blame if they go around raping then? so we shouldn't be shocked or blame them? Women know your place. Ask nicely not to be raped? Fuck off, that video is bollocks and she needs to get over herself. Anger is a reasonable response to an injustice.

She has no need to defend or answer for anyone or any views other than her own.

bigmouthstrikesagain Tue 18-Oct-16 10:52:43

I have been part of and party to various Social Justice movements in the last 25 years, Poll Tax, Animal Rights, Anti-racism, Student politics, anti capitalism etc. etc. and I have been a member of active groups, marching and other protest activities. The people you meet in these movements often are angry, vocal, passionate and pro-active. Sometimes to the exclusion of other interests, we need people like that to energise and inspire others. If everyone reasoned like the woman in this video nothing would ever fucking change! If we all sat around being reasonable and apologist and talking nicely and demurely that would be lovely but it is not possible for everyone to be that passive.

There are a lot of things wrong in our society - and more importantly it is more wrong for certain sectors of the population. I am privileged, I have a comfortable home, enough food, good schools for my children, I am the same colour as most of the other people in my country, I am well educated, free to move where I want to without fear, there is no war in my country. I am not going to dictate how other people in less privileged positions should feel about the world and their place in it. Or tell someone I feel uncomfortable because their outrage is upsetting me? How dare I?

1DAD2KIDS Tue 18-Oct-16 11:15:42

Fair point bigmouth. Maybe big action are needed for change. A lot would argue that the continuous actions of the IRA and it's campaign across the UK brought a change to the way Northern Ireland is administered and a fairer society and political power to the oppressed Catholic minority. Affectively bombing their way to the peace table and power. No although I don't condone violence I can understand how an oppressed group may step things up when they feel like they are banging their head against a brick wall.

People are reading a lot more between the line on this than me. Not sure if they are right or not. I think it's a lot to do with perspective and the tint of the glasses they are viewing with. As we know there is a lot of different perspective out there.

As to southpark yes the word fag has been used a few times. The goth kids say it a lot.

1DAD2KIDS Tue 18-Oct-16 11:18:12

This video is mainly aimed at section of the US collage campus community of feminist SJW.

BertrandRussell Tue 18-Oct-16 11:25:59

"This video is mainly aimed at section of the US collage campus community of feminist SJW."

Oh, right. Is that who you were expecting answers from, then?

By the way- what are the toxic elements going under the flag of feminism you mentioned? Could you give some examples?

FreshwaterSelkie Tue 18-Oct-16 11:29:20

People are reading a lot more between the line on this than me

Dude, you brought it here to debate! What are we supposed to say? Yeah, she's right, some unspecified feminists are ruining it for other unspecified feminists by doing unspecified things that make other people feel bad or something.

And yes, the "lens" that people are looking at it through, on a feminist board, is a feminist lens. I give up.

Dervel Tue 18-Oct-16 11:37:40

I've not watched the video, but I have become interested in the whole SJW movement as a whole.

A lot of it is internet blogging and vlogging, where in order to maximise views. A lot of topics are click-baity, deliberately designed to raise heckles and generate anger.

A lot of people create this virtue signalling echo-chambers where if you don't have the right opinions you are a baddie (either sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic etc).

A prime example is this is the recent prominence of trans issues. Which in and of itself is not unhealthy for us to examine. It's never a bad thing to strive to make society more inclusive, but the way it has been done has pushed women's rights out of the way (because being trans trumps bieng a woman in the oppression olympics).

You then get the baffling state of affairs that eminent thinkers like Germaine Greer get no platformed at universities, and any attempt at a feminist perspective that is anything other than unqualified praise and admiration for the trans struggle is branded terf and shot down.

It's the either you are with us or against us rhetoric that is problematic. It happens across all avenues now and it's getting in the way.

I am reminded of a wise view expressed by Andrea Dworkin, on being interviewed she was asked a question on liberal feminism (I suspect to try and set her own brand of radical feminism in an adversarial context). Her response was brilliant in that her response was that she failed to see a distinction, people are different some responded to the radical and some to the liberal softer approach. They are both complimentary.

Just because someone takes a different line from you on an issue does not mean they don't care as deeply as you on the subject. A lot of us have have lost sight of these in recent years.

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