"Cissexist" classics

[HemlockSolanum]

Last night I dreamt that Little Women became a banned book due to being "TERFy"

So what other classics would fall foul?

[mollie123]

how about all the songs with 'woman' in the title :

I’m Every Woman – Whitney Houston
You Make Me Feel Like a Natural Woman – Aretha Franklin
Oh, Pretty Woman – Roy Orbison
Black Magic Woman – Santana
I Am Woman – Helen Reddy
Man! I Feel Like A Woman – Shania Twain
No Woman, No Cry – Bob Marley
When A Man Loves A Woman – Percy Sledge
Woman – John Lennon

I am sure there are lots more.

[mollie123]

on books as OP referred to them :

The woman in White
The woman in black
A woman of no importance
The french lieutenant's woman
Women in Love
not to mention all the classic books with 'girl' in the title - it does open a can of worms

[elQuintoConyo]

Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret
Fanny by Gaslight
Portrait of a Lady
Mrs Dalloway


am I on the right track?

[emwithme]

The Turbulent Term of Tyke Tyler.

[Lanark2]

Is a cissexist someone who looks physically like a sexist as well as being one?

[MoonriseKingdom]

Not quite the same but what about 'Lola' by The Kinks? Lots of correct uses of female pronouns. Bit of gender fluidity (girls will be boys and boys will be girls). But all gets a bit ambiguous at the end.
'I know what I am and I'm glad I'm a man and so is Lola'.
Is Lola glad he is a man? Is Lola actually a man and she glad about it?
Great song though

[femfortheday]

Inviting all women for smear tests, men for prostate checks, using the word 'breastfeeding', referring to 'breastfeeding mother's 'pregnant women'. Any mention of menstruation or reproductive health that isn't totally sex neutral.

Also-
The Women's Institute

[mupperoon]

The Famous Five? George was continually misgendered, despite being allowed to use the boys' version of her name. But who cares, she started off a girl.

[MoonriseKingdom]

Enid Blyton was a repeat offender on that score. In Malory Towers there is a character called Wilhemina who insists on being called Bill but is made to go to a girls only school.

[Lanark2]

What about Rod Jane and 'Freddie'

[SquirmOfEels]

Lowering the tone: Fanny Hill

(PS: Lola was a transvestitie, not a transgender person)

[MoonriseKingdom]

By the politics of the time Lola was a transvestite but whose to say today that she wouldn't choose to be transgender. When transgender was far less socially acceptable I bet many dressed as women in a relatively safe environment (eg bar in Soho) but would dress as a man in their everyday life.

[Lanark2]

So if you feel like a man, like women but like women's clothes, but don't change character its transvestite, if you feel like a man, like men, like women's clothes but don't change character its gay transvestite?
Then Lola is man who dresses like a woman, fancies men, but has a female persona. If that last line is 'glad she(Lola) is a man, then likes either penis or identifies as male,
If feels like a woman, but is a man and dresses like a man..is that a transvestite (from) transgender? Then if a man, dresses like a woman and identifies as a woman, is that 'full' transgender, then with the willy off is where confusion is no? With willy off it is either transsexual or just 'woman' or is it 'transwoman' meaning transsexual in this case, nor transgender?

[CoteDAzur]

What is a "female persona"?

[MoonriseKingdom]

The last line is (probably purposely) very ambiguous. The song is not from her viewpoint. 'And so is Lola' implies the protagonist sees her as a man but it doesn't mean she necessarily does.

Ray Davies is an interesting person as well as a bloody good song writer. He certainly pushed notions of gender in the 60s by dressing in what was considered to be a feminine way. 'I'm not the worlds most madculine guy' is another line from Lola. He wrote songs about sexuality - see my friends has been said to be about gay experiences (not necessarily his) although he has given other explanations of the song.

[Shallishanti]

Have just read the lyrics for Lola, they seem less ambiguous than I thought- it can be simply read as - Lola is a woman (who walks like a woman and talks like a man), the singer is a heterosexual man who dances with her, sits on her lap, she says to him 'little boy gonna make you a man' (his first sexual experience) - he reflects it's a mixed up world (girls will be boys and boys will be girls) but he, the singer is a man and Lola (always called she) is glad he is.
Straight man is not threatened by 'masculine' woman and is seduced by her.

Still wondering why it was such a hit with lesbians in 1980s discos though

[MoonriseKingdom]

Your right it could be interpreted as a 'madculine' woman but I think it is meant to be either a transvestite or transgender person. The wiki page suggests it is based on the experiences of their manager.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lola_(song)

Sorry if I have derailed this thread OP.

[MoonriseKingdom]

Madculine! Sorry about my typing.

[SquirmOfEels]

"but whose to say today that she wouldn't choose to be transgender"

No-one can say that. There's a limit to how far you can speculatatively reinvent the past. Especially as I've just checked and Lola wasn't released until 1970, and so nearly a decade after say the publicity surrounding April Ashley. Acceptance in some parts of society, yes quite different. Likely to be an inhibition in the writing of this song? Nope.

[MoonriseKingdom]

The song is entirely from the young man's viewpoint and his interpretation is that this is a man. I don't think you can say with any certainty from this song how Lola would see herself. There is no mention of how she lives the rest of her life.

If you read the wiki page there is references initially to transvestism but later on it suggests that they had frequented transgender pubs and that Ray Davis had had a friendship with a transgender actress. I think the song is purposely very ambiguous and that Lola being transgender is a valid interpretation.

[MoonriseKingdom]

To take it back to the origin of the thread, I nominated it as potentially being thought of as cissexist because it is written from the perspective of a cisgender man and so 'so is Lola' could be potentially considered offensive.

[Lanark2]

No but 'so is lola' is 'Lola is glad that the narrator is a man'

[Shallishanti]

yup, that's how I hear it

[Lanark2]

What about that walk on the wild side, it says he was a she because he shaved his legs and wore women's clothes but that ignores the internal socio sexual construction of gender and confuses it with clothes and some gendered behaviour, bit that isn't the same as being either a transwoman or a ciswoman. Also why is it 'wild' to be a transvestite?