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"Cissexist"; classics

(40 Posts)
HemlockSolanum Thu 10-Mar-16 13:50:45

Last night I dreamt that Little Women became a banned book due to being "TERFy"

So what other classics would fall foul?

mollie123 Thu 10-Mar-16 14:13:51

how about all the songs with 'woman' in the title :

I’m Every Woman – Whitney Houston
You Make Me Feel Like a Natural Woman – Aretha Franklin
Oh, Pretty Woman – Roy Orbison
Black Magic Woman – Santana
I Am Woman – Helen Reddy
Man! I Feel Like A Woman – Shania Twain
No Woman, No Cry – Bob Marley
When A Man Loves A Woman – Percy Sledge
Woman – John Lennon

I am sure there are lots more.

mollie123 Thu 10-Mar-16 14:22:48

on books as OP referred to them :

The woman in White
The woman in black
A woman of no importance
The french lieutenant's woman
Women in Love
not to mention all the classic books with 'girl' in the title smile - it does open a can of worms

elQuintoConyo Thu 10-Mar-16 14:26:06

Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret
Fanny by Gaslight
Portrait of a Lady
Mrs Dalloway

am I on the right track?

emwithme Thu 10-Mar-16 14:30:52

The Turbulent Term of Tyke Tyler.

Lanark2 Thu 10-Mar-16 14:33:07

Is a cissexist someone who looks physically like a sexist as well as being one?

MoonriseKingdom Thu 10-Mar-16 14:44:17

Not quite the same but what about 'Lola' by The Kinks? Lots of correct uses of female pronouns. Bit of gender fluidity (girls will be boys and boys will be girls). But all gets a bit ambiguous at the end.
'I know what I am and I'm glad I'm a man and so is Lola'.
Is Lola glad he is a man? Is Lola actually a man and she glad about it?
Great song though

femfortheday Thu 10-Mar-16 15:55:48

Inviting all women for smear tests, men for prostate checks, using the word 'breastfeeding', referring to 'breastfeeding mother's 'pregnant women'. Any mention of menstruation or reproductive health that isn't totally sex neutral.

The Women's Institute

mupperoon Thu 10-Mar-16 16:03:50

The Famous Five? George was continually misgendered, despite being allowed to use the boys' version of her name. But who cares, she started off a girl.

MoonriseKingdom Thu 10-Mar-16 16:19:15

Enid Blyton was a repeat offender on that score. In Malory Towers there is a character called Wilhemina who insists on being called Bill but is made to go to a girls only school.

Lanark2 Thu 10-Mar-16 18:39:28

What about Rod Jane and 'Freddie'

SquirmOfEels Thu 10-Mar-16 18:51:11

Lowering the tone: Fanny Hill

(PS: Lola was a transvestitie, not a transgender person)

ShowMeTheWonder Thu 10-Mar-16 18:57:26

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MoonriseKingdom Thu 10-Mar-16 19:43:46

By the politics of the time Lola was a transvestite but whose to say today that she wouldn't choose to be transgender. When transgender was far less socially acceptable I bet many dressed as women in a relatively safe environment (eg bar in Soho) but would dress as a man in their everyday life.

Lanark2 Thu 10-Mar-16 19:56:43

So if you feel like a man, like women but like women's clothes, but don't change character its transvestite, if you feel like a man, like men, like women's clothes but don't change character its gay transvestite?
Then Lola is man who dresses like a woman, fancies men, but has a female persona. If that last line is 'glad she(Lola) is a man, then likes either penis or identifies as male,
If feels like a woman, but is a man and dresses like a that a transvestite (from) transgender? Then if a man, dresses like a woman and identifies as a woman, is that 'full' transgender, then with the willy off is where confusion is no? With willy off it is either transsexual or just 'woman' or is it 'transwoman' meaning transsexual in this case, nor transgender?

CoteDAzur Thu 10-Mar-16 20:00:01

What is a "female persona"?

MoonriseKingdom Thu 10-Mar-16 20:17:08

The last line is (probably purposely) very ambiguous. The song is not from her viewpoint. 'And so is Lola' implies the protagonist sees her as a man but it doesn't mean she necessarily does.

Ray Davies is an interesting person as well as a bloody good song writer. He certainly pushed notions of gender in the 60s by dressing in what was considered to be a feminine way. 'I'm not the worlds most madculine guy' is another line from Lola. He wrote songs about sexuality - see my friends has been said to be about gay experiences (not necessarily his) although he has given other explanations of the song.

Shallishanti Thu 10-Mar-16 20:38:49

Have just read the lyrics for Lola, they seem less ambiguous than I thought- it can be simply read as - Lola is a woman (who walks like a woman and talks like a man), the singer is a heterosexual man who dances with her, sits on her lap, she says to him 'little boy gonna make you a man' (his first sexual experience) - he reflects it's a mixed up world (girls will be boys and boys will be girls) but he, the singer is a man and Lola (always called she) is glad he is.
Straight man is not threatened by 'masculine' woman and is seduced by her.

Still wondering why it was such a hit with lesbians in 1980s discos though

MoonriseKingdom Thu 10-Mar-16 20:50:14

Your right it could be interpreted as a 'madculine' woman but I think it is meant to be either a transvestite or transgender person. The wiki page suggests it is based on the experiences of their manager.

Sorry if I have derailed this thread OP.

MoonriseKingdom Thu 10-Mar-16 20:51:08

Madculine! Sorry about my typing.

SquirmOfEels Thu 10-Mar-16 21:17:10

"but whose to say today that she wouldn't choose to be transgender"

No-one can say that. There's a limit to how far you can speculatatively reinvent the past. Especially as I've just checked and Lola wasn't released until 1970, and so nearly a decade after say the publicity surrounding April Ashley. Acceptance in some parts of society, yes quite different. Likely to be an inhibition in the writing of this song? Nope.

MoonriseKingdom Thu 10-Mar-16 21:37:01

The song is entirely from the young man's viewpoint and his interpretation is that this is a man. I don't think you can say with any certainty from this song how Lola would see herself. There is no mention of how she lives the rest of her life.

If you read the wiki page there is references initially to transvestism but later on it suggests that they had frequented transgender pubs and that Ray Davis had had a friendship with a transgender actress. I think the song is purposely very ambiguous and that Lola being transgender is a valid interpretation.

MoonriseKingdom Thu 10-Mar-16 22:06:52

To take it back to the origin of the thread, I nominated it as potentially being thought of as cissexist because it is written from the perspective of a cisgender man and so 'so is Lola' could be potentially considered offensive.

Lanark2 Thu 10-Mar-16 22:55:37

No but 'so is lola' is 'Lola is glad that the narrator is a man'

Shallishanti Thu 10-Mar-16 23:24:20

yup, that's how I hear it

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