General Trans thread part 2

(1000 Posts)
ChiefClerkDrumknott Thu 07-Jan-16 08:29:28

Following on from this one General Trans thread
Because I'm not Elsa and can't let it go wink

Even a quick read of this thread suggest there is a lot of anger. ..
Some examples...

You don't need examples. I told you that we are angry

This "debate" between radical feminism and the trans community is being seen by mainstream as a particularly nasty fight with some issues, risks and fears (on both sides) being deliberately exaggerated.

And who do you think started the fight? I think you'll find some rad fem fears stem from being threatened with death and rape when they bring up objections to some of these 'issues' you glibly dismiss. Do you not think that's an understandable reaction? By the way, have you popped over to Twitter or Tumblr yet to plead with 'TERF' killers to be less aggressive?

As mentioned earlier, I may be completely wrong. Perhaps the best solution is to get even angrier, even more offensive and aggressive...

You know what, as I said we are angry and we are 'aggressive', if you term defending women's rights vocally and loudly and consistently aggressive hmm

MelindaMay Thu 07-Jan-16 09:02:06

I wince when words like 'freak' and 'that' are used to describe people. I don't like it, and I won't do it. BUT then I wonder about an obvious double standard, under which people who have 'die cis scum' tattooed on their arms, people who tweet pictures of themselves holding large knives with the caption 'send me a TERF' don't seem to have anyone explaining politely that perhaps if they were a bit less obviously angry and aggressive, perhaps people would be more inclined to listen to their quite reasonable insistence that they be treated with respect and dignity. You know, the whole 'be nice and we'll get around to recognising your humanity' suggestion that feminists seem to receive. Or perhaps conversations like that are happening, I just don't see them...?

BeyondCBA Thu 07-Jan-16 09:06:37

Slightly OT, but saw something yesterday that i thought was funny. Buzzfeed posted a "omg, first time lesbians touch a penis video"

The inevitable "trans-erasure" "but what about the be-lady-penised lesbians" showed up of course...

CoteDAzur Thu 07-Jan-16 09:34:03

Re Slow's confusion over Probability and Risk:

Slow was under the misguided impression that Probability of being administered a smear by a transwoman = Risk of that smear. That is not the case, because Probability =/= Risk.

Probability = Likelihood of something happening (e.g. When I flip a coin Probability of getting a head is 1/2)

Risk = Probability x Loss (e.g. If I lose £100 on getting a head, the Risk is 1/2 x 100 = £50).

The difference is important, because while our new male friend and GF Slow can amuse himself to his heart's content trying to calculate the Probability of a terrified woman encountering a transwoman with a penis while spreadeagled half-naked on a recliner chair, he does not even pretend to undertand the Loss part of the equation. And therefore he cannot possibly calculate the Risk in this situation.

CoteDAzur Thu 07-Jan-16 09:35:00

Yes, I'm continuing this from the other thread because I'm not Elsa either smile and I think it's cruel to let someone wallow in his own ignorance.

ShortcutButton Thu 07-Jan-16 09:51:42

I am the person who used 'freaks' and 'that' and I stand by it

Stephonknee is a freak. He presents himself as a 6 year old girl and has his 'daddy' fuck him up the are. Then comments in relation to that fucking up the are, that it made him feel so much like a girl that he's suprised he doesn't believe himself to be pregnant. THEN sees fit to comment that he is getting aroused just taking about it and needs to pull his skirt down (to cover his erection)

Are you including such autogynophiles under the trans-umbrella? Because it seems that is the case, in defending such people

And 'that': I didn't come up with the ridiculous notion of using gender-neutral pronouns for people, now did I?

CrayonShavings Thu 07-Jan-16 09:54:50

I think this is an excellent blog post on the subject of boundaries and exclusion:

thefifthcolumnnews.com/2015/12/in-defense-of-excluding-transwomen-from-feminist-spaces/

nowhere in this article, did I use the common defenses I see other gender-critics using (like “what if one of the women at this female-only gathering is a rape survivor?”). While it’s valorous to consider trauma survivors as needing extra attention and care, using Schrodinger’s Rape Victim as a defense only reinforces the idea that women have to justify their desire for private spaces, or that the trauma of women is a fit bartering tool

ShortcutButton Thu 07-Jan-16 09:55:24

And yy, I am really angry about the erasure of women's protection/spaces/services. I'm not aggressive

MelindaMay Thu 07-Jan-16 10:01:57

Is the question "are you including such autogynophiles under the trans-umbrella?" addressed to me? If so you're wasting your energy because I'm not a transactivist. I think terms like 'freak' and 'that' to describe people are impolitic and I won't use them. Doesn't mean I think that Stephonknee's statements are anything other than a horrible normalisation of misogynistic abuse.

ShortcutButton Thu 07-Jan-16 10:07:02

No Melinda, my post was to slow
I agree, freak is not a very polite term. But I don't feel very polite and it is an accurate descriptor

ShortcutButton Thu 07-Jan-16 10:09:07

freak
[friːk]
NOUN
a very unusual and unexpected event or situation:
"the teacher says the accident was a total freak" · [more]
synonyms: fluke · anomaly · aberration · rogue · rarity · quirk · [more]
a person, animal, or plant with an unusual physical abnormality.
"a few freaks have been discovered, one amazing cat tipping the scales at no less than 43 lbs" · [more]
synonyms: aberration · abnormality · irregularity · oddity · monster · [more]
informal
a person who is obsessed with a particular activity or interest:
"a fitness freak"
archaic
a sudden arbitrary change of mind; a whim:
"follow this way or that, as the freak takes you"
synonyms: whim · whimsy · fancy · fad · vagary · notion · conceit · [more]
VERB
informal
behave or cause to behave in a wild and irrational way, typically because of the effects of extreme emotion or drugs:
"he freaked out and smashed the place up" · [more]
synonyms: go crazy · go mad · go out of one's mind · go to pieces · [more]
archaic
fleck or streak randomly:
"the white pink and the pansy freaked with jet"
synonyms: stripe · band · bar · fleck · striate · freak

MelindaMay Thu 07-Jan-16 10:10:59

I find it tricky. On the one hand, I worry that such terms do more harm than good, because they offer an easy way for people to criticise the radical feminist position "see, we were right, they are just mean". This is what I mean by impolitic. But on the other hand, as you say, why shouldn't women express their views using the language they wish to; isn't to say otherwise just the gendered double standard of emotional care-taking being applied? In my case, internally. I don't know. But I err on the side of using other words anyway.

PassiveAgressiveQueen Thu 07-Jan-16 10:15:38

I may be aggresive because i can't be angry any other way, i takes a lot of screwing myself up to be angry and so it comes out that way.
But heck the baddies are way more aggresive than me.

noeffingidea Thu 07-Jan-16 10:17:44

I personally agree that the word 'freak' isn't appropiate. But Shortcut is free to use it if it falls within the rules of the forum. Just report it if you think it doesn't.
Words like 'pervert' may be more fitting. I don't even know what to think of Stephonknee. I came across the adult baby thing on late night cable TV. I don't know how it came to be associated with the T movement.

ShortcutButton Thu 07-Jan-16 10:19:47

I agree totally Melinda. Using emotive terms is probably self-defeating because as you say the focus is then on how aggressive/impolite etc a person is being

But I'm SOOO fed up with being gas lighted. I think its really important to be naming things correctly; using clear language and accurate definitions. We go round and round in circles because people!e conflate 'sex' and 'gender' all the time

And the other thing that is hampering progress, is that so many people are afraid of being labeled prejudice/phobic etc. Everyone wants to be liberal and polite. And trans activists play on that fear. Its used to silence. Its an Achilles heel IMO

ShortcutButton Thu 07-Jan-16 10:23:17

I always assumed that Stephonknee was on another level altogether, pretty much not considered representative of TG people

WRONG!!

He's a spokesperson for some TG advocacy group in Canada, I was told. And has been named and thanked for helping progress towards fTG legislation (I don't have the details...maybe someone could fill them in)

MelindaMay Thu 07-Jan-16 10:33:17

noeffing I'm not saying people shouldn't use those words, as in, I find them offensive and I want MN to delete the post or whatever.

Even though it's just a couple of words, it seems significant. I don't know whether it is a sort of metaphor for the debate, or whether it's a vital component of it.

It's part a question of activism tactics (if that makes sense?) and part an ethical decision for each person. I think the former is definitely worth discussing.

TheWatchersCouncil Thu 07-Jan-16 11:21:43

Thanks for starting a new thread.

Nothing to add at the moment, save to echo the feelings of anger expressed by other posters. This is bloody serious and I feel we have all been willfully misled, lied to and stitched up.

whatdoIget Thu 07-Jan-16 11:22:11

In the blog that crayonshavings linked to, there is a very disturbing description of the author realising that the trans women in a group for survivors of child sexual abuse were studying the women in the group and imitating their mannerisms and speech when they were talking about what had happened to them. Sorry if the above doesn't make very much sense, but the link is here

greyselegy Thu 07-Jan-16 11:30:10

I'm a bit wary of posting here. But I've learned a lot by lurking on this thread and others, and you seem a welcoming bunch in general. Do I understand the trans issue? (I've abstracted a little to try to avoid what often seems distracting semantic baggage.) I'll explain my interest if asked.

Here goes:
In the world, there are people with penises (‘pd’ for short) and people with wombs (‘pw’). Generally, pd and pw form exhaustive disjoint classes; that is every person is either a pd or a pw, and no-one is both. (Of course there are exceptions – my mother, for instance, had a hysterectomy; some people have their penises cut off, deliberately or otherwise – but we can bracket such exceptions from the discussion on the basis that hard cases make bad law.)

Like lots of people I’ve noticed that, generally, pw are oppressed in many ways by pd. You can’t miss this, it’s obvious – and obviously entrenched – in my society, and seems the case in other societies too, both currently and historically. One of the ways pd maintain their privilege (and this oppression) is by something called ‘gender stereotyping’ (‘gs’).

For reasons that are unclear, some pd think they would like to be pw (or in some unexplained way, like pw); call such pd ‘tg’. Tg can’t be pw; it’s just a physical impossibility. However, their way of expressing the desire to be pw involves forcing on society extreme aspects of that very gs that pd use, and have used, to oppress pw.

So tg should think again about what they think they want on at least two grounds: (1) what they think they want is impossible; (2) their way of expressing what they think they want is bad for pw, who anyway have lots on their plate fighting oppression by pd in general and can do without this shit.

Disclosure and question. I’m a pd. Could/can I be a TERF? (I think I'd like to be, even though I'm generally an inclusive sort.)

Is this pd-splaining? I hope not, but apologies if so. If anyone can be bothered, let me know.

TheWatchersCouncil Thu 07-Jan-16 11:36:48

** and tg deny the reality, or at the very least importance of, issues that can only be experienced by pw and not also by tg.

ShortcutButton Thu 07-Jan-16 12:44:08

Why on earth have you invented labels for people with penises and wombs?

They are commonly known as men and women

We need to use clear language to move forward

ShortcutButton Thu 07-Jan-16 12:45:38

And why are you asking us if, as a man, you can be a TERF? Trans activists invented the term and are the ones that apply it, so ask them

parachutesilk Thu 07-Jan-16 13:14:15

Trying out the names:- in your system, tgpd want to be pw so much that they insist the label generally used for pw, 'woman', should mean them too. Unfortunately this leaves no name for pw. If pw can no longer be named and discussed as a separate group of people from pd, that makes maintaining safe places for pw away from all pd (not just tgpd), and organising politically in the specific interests of pw rather than pd, very very difficult. Meanwhile unsurprisingly it's a winner all round for the pd (whether tgpd or not).

I think there is some value in occasionally laying things out with temporary made-up labels as it does help to highlight some of the absurdities and failures of logic.

IamTheWhoreofBabylon Thu 07-Jan-16 13:22:55

Transition seems to be a very effective way of shedding past crimes
Steponknee is reported as having list everything due to transphobia not his violent history as a man
Tara Hudsons crime was barely mentioned
Even Jenner was able to kill a woman whilst driving and there is barely a mention of it
Of course a mere death pales in comparison to what they have been through when transitioning hmm

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