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Suicide-a feminist issue?

(321 Posts)
whenwomenruletheworld Fri 01-Jan-16 16:58:50

Tragically high male suicide rates have I think wrongly painted this as a men's issue. Aren't all the suicides men and women tragedies? And if the "man up/grow a pair" culture is in part responsible for men killing themselves in such numbers, when will society see feminism as the main opponent to the patriarchal bullshit which creates these gender stereotypes as the main hope for both men and women of dismantling them? It is disheartening to hear men talk disparagingly about feminism when my God the alternatives PUA nonsense MRA, UKIP, are so totally discredited. As someone posted on here when will there be a men's rights movement which embraces feminism as it's sister movement and which focuses on things which damage everyone?

Exalted Fri 01-Jan-16 17:26:42

And if the "man up/grow a pair" culture is in part responsible for men killing themselves in such numbers, when will society see feminism as the main opponent to the patriarchal bullshit which creates these gender stereotypes as the main hope for both men and women of dismantling them?

This is highly illogical. If the patriarchy truly exists, which it does not (at least not in modern western societies), and its goal is to subjugate women and elevate the status of men, then why would it consciously perpetuate stereotypes that denigrate them? Would it "create" a stereotype which imparts considerable pressure on men and prevents from venting their emotions in a healthy manner? Instead, the stereotype practically forces them to bottle these emotions up, resulting in mental imbalance and stress; two precursors to suicidal thoughts. Do you not see the profound flaw in your assertion here?

Movingonmymind Fri 01-Jan-16 17:28:59

"The patriarchy does not exist"?! hmmhmmhmm

CultureSucksDownWords Fri 01-Jan-16 17:29:22

Exalted what do you think of the OPs last sentence?

Exalted Fri 01-Jan-16 17:56:33

As someone posted on here when will there be a men's rights movement which embraces feminism as it's sister movement and which focuses on things which damage everyone?

I believe that ANY movement which attempts to analyse and subsequently rectify gender issues by regarding them from the perspective of one gender is inherently flawed and doomed to fail. Looking through such a bias lens, it is easy for one to interpret the most benign of messages or portrayals as sexist, resulting in a profound exaggeration of the extent of sexism in (modern western) society. It becomes so ludicrous that, no matter what you say, somebody somewhere could accuse you of having sexist undertones to your message.

There are a multitude of complex issues which affect both genders. Feminism is not the answer. Masculinism is not the answer. This cauldron of turmoil is best approached from a humanist point of view, which embraces objective reasoning, altruistic morality and distributive justice to confer equal rights and privileges to all individuals. It promotes personal freedom and choice without the threat of persecution or subjugation.

Muttaburrasaurus Fri 01-Jan-16 18:00:20

There are single issue groups like this that focus on mens mental health and suicide. In my experience of the people in them, I would say many would completely agree with you op. However, as men as a whole class would lose their current advantage if patriarchy diappeared, I think Mens rights groups have the choice to either accept that and work with feminists or to fight for the balance to be even more skewed in favour of men. That is what they seem to do because as a whole they've more to gain that way even if it isnt fair, is at the expense of women and disadvantages some individual men. It might be a tactic that works for issues like family courts but isnt likely to be successful for male suicide. I think thats why mras dont tend to bother much in campaigning about suicide as an issue with any degree of seriousness.

HamaTime Fri 01-Jan-16 20:59:06

this is interesting on the harm that patriarchy does to men and why they they seemingly are totes fine with it

This is highly illogical Well, yes confused but that doesn't mean it isn't a thing that happens.

Exalted Fri 01-Jan-16 22:16:05

This is highly illogical Well, yes but that doesn't mean it isn't a thing that happens.

So, in spite of the fact that the OPs assertion is illogical and thus, nonsensical, you argue you that it can still "happen" in real life. What?! By virtue of its nonsensical quality, the OPs assertion cannot possibly reflect reality; it defies all logic and reason and is ultimately self-defeating as demonstrated in my rebuttal.

whenwomenruletheworld Fri 01-Jan-16 22:37:23

What a brilliant article Hamatime. Absolutely, men must dismantle the patriarchy thems elves. Anything is possible once that happens.

whenwomenruletheworld Fri 01-Jan-16 22:41:07

Exalted your posts are really poorly expressed. All you do is attack my original post without an alternative proposition. You are becoming evidence of what you seek to deny.

Oswin Fri 01-Jan-16 22:44:01

Exalted reminds me of Russell brand. Using a million words to get to the bloody point.

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow Fri 01-Jan-16 22:45:20

OP, I agree. I have always thought that feminism benefits men in that it frees them from the stifling constraints of "be a man" culture (a legacy of patriarchy).

Feminism challenges the pigeon-holing of gender roles as well as biological determinism and that benefits both genders.

BertieBotts Fri 01-Jan-16 22:45:57

Exalted is trolling every thread with unrelated comments, I suggest people ignore them and the attempts to derail every discussion.

OP, I think you make some excellent points. The "man up/stuff upper lip" thing is totally rooted in patriarchy and harmful gender stereotypes.

Also, did you know that women attempt suicide more often than men, but are less successful? I feel like this is also relevant. Also the fact that women tend to be in caregiver roles whereas men are less likely to have dependents.

BertieBotts Fri 01-Jan-16 22:46:33

Oswin grin I think you've blown his cover!

Exalted Fri 01-Jan-16 23:05:25

All you do is attack my original post without an alternative proposition

On the contrary, my first post dismantled your argument and my second provided an alternative to feminism for attaining gender equality. You are yet to respond to either of these assertions.

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow Fri 01-Jan-16 23:06:15

"I believe that ANY movement which attempts to analyse and subsequently rectify gender issues by regarding them from the perspective of one gender is inherently flawed and doomed to fail. "

That would only be true if the current system itself hadn't been set up according to the perspective of one gender.

Seeyounearertime Fri 01-Jan-16 23:07:28

OP, I agree. I have always thought that feminism benefits men in that it frees them from the stifling constraints of "be a man" culture (a legacy of patriarchy).

Feminism challenges the pigeon-holing of gender roles as well as biological determinism and that benefits both genders.

I love this post. Is all I wanted to say. grin

HamaTime Fri 01-Jan-16 23:23:51

So, in spite of the fact that the OPs assertion is illogical and thus, nonsensical, you argue you that it can still "happen" in real life. What?!

Yes, that's right. Glad we are on the same page.

Women make illogical, nonsensical, 'choices' all the time in order to survive in a patriarchy, and they are called out as being illogical and nonsensical. They can make the other 'choice', but then they are derided for not playing the game, then they must lose, publicly, and what sort of logic is that? Mens illogical, nonsensical 'choices' are seen as a normal part of 'being a man', and as men are valued, their illogical and nonsensical choices are valued too, even when the choice is to behave like an absolute arse. Anyone who has ever seen a small boy castigated by a grown man for being a pussy showing any sign of weakness or emotion knows the price men are willing to pay to remain at the top of the gender tree. Logical? I don't think so.

GiddyOnZackHunt Fri 01-Jan-16 23:33:12

I'm trying to remember the stats from my degree decades ago, but I thought more women than men attempt suicide. However there is or was a divide in the methods they use which make it more likely that a man will succeed. They use violent methods that are all or nothing whereas women use softer methods that are more nuanced.
This may be very out of date.

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow Fri 01-Jan-16 23:42:31

"the price men are willing to pay to remain at the top of the gender tree. "

Exactly, because classic patriarchy is essentially about male competition to stay on top. Which means, to answer your question Exalted, it doesn't necessarily benefit all men but those who manage to stay on top of the "gender tree".

And as part of that staying on top involves putting down / owning women, it very rarely benefits women.

I know you have an issue with patriarchy existing today so try to think of it historically (where men did literally own women) and that today is a legacy of that where ideas continue to exist even when the practices have been outlawed.

PalmerViolet Fri 01-Jan-16 23:43:36

Nope, pretty much on the money Giddy.

Even when they commit suicide, women don't feel able to have people having to clean up after them.

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow Fri 01-Jan-16 23:47:37

Isn't it that men are more likely to use guns which don't leave a lot of room for resuscitation?

GiddyOnZackHunt Fri 01-Jan-16 23:48:19

Ah yes Palmer that is true! Or traumatise anyone, like a tube train driver.

Muttaburrasaurus Fri 01-Jan-16 23:49:10

Women are also more likely to seek help when feeling suicidal than men. The stats on deliberate self harm can be difficult to interpret because intent is hard to gauge, hence the simple divide into suicide vs dsh in most studies rather than 'suicide attempt' vs 'self harm'. However, not all dsh is necessarily about an actual wish to die. Some can be an attempt to control overwhelming emotions for example and women are more likely to to harm themselves for this reason than men. I'm rambling but I guess I'm trying to say I think men not seeking help is also a factor in the higher suicide rate as well as the tendency to violent means.

GiddyOnZackHunt Fri 01-Jan-16 23:58:06

I can't remember but I think the figures took account of actual attempts rather than including seeking help and self harm. I don't think I have that essay or research now.

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