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"What makes a women" NY Times article

(216 Posts)
iisme Mon 08-Jun-15 10:30:57

Nothing very new here but it expresses most of my feelings around the trans debates very clearly and well. I want to put it on Facebook but I know it will kick off a shit-storm and I'm not sure I have the strength ...

LondonZoo Mon 08-Jun-15 11:17:39

Yes, I agree- can't read any comments on my phone

NomiMalone Mon 08-Jun-15 11:21:04

Great article.

Sent it to DP who has seemed a bit shocked by my stance on trans feminism. He wants to understand it more fully and I think this article will help.

I want to share it on FB too but I know it would cause a ruckus.

geekaMaxima Mon 08-Jun-15 13:27:08

Fantastic article, thanks for sharing.

Modwolvesrock Mon 08-Jun-15 13:46:34

This article sums up my thoughts on the trans issues. Very interesting reading.

Mumsnet has been a real eye opener for me -reading between the lines a lot more these days!

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest Mon 08-Jun-15 16:14:44

That's a wonderful article.

I find it very telling that (the then) Bruce Jenner most looked forward to wearing nail varnish when he became a woman. Of all things. And that this desire didn't make him question gender norms, but instead made him think he had to become a woman. It just feels archaic.

I enjoy mechanics and mountain biking - if anyone questioned me doing them as a woman I'd tell them to fuck off, not think I had to grow a penis to do what I like.

LeBearPolar Mon 08-Jun-15 16:49:42

A very interesting article.

I found it exhausting just reading about the linguistic dance that now has to be done every time we open our mouths to discuss this and so many other subjects.

PuffinsAreFictitious Mon 08-Jun-15 16:51:04

I really like this article, it articulates pretty much exactly how I feel about the whole thing. It has to be some of the clearest writing on the subject thus far.

uglyswan Mon 08-Jun-15 17:09:22

Well, that's a tad depressing. Don't get me wrong, I'm quite pro trans rights in general. In my admittedly rather naive and over-optimistic worldview, the freedom to define your own gender, regardless of social norms and biological factors is primarily a good thing. Sometimes I hope that the power to redefine gender as fluid and self-attributable, to detach it from biological factors will contribute to undermining the rationalisation for the subjugation of women as a class. I'm willing to reexamine my own use of language as a tool for the reinforcement of the gender binary and the exclusion of people who do not conform to conventional definitions of gender (although you can fuck right off with "front hole"). But then people like Jenner rock up, babbling about nail varnish and female brains, and I feel that, somewhere along the line, I seem to have backed the wrong horse.

almondcakes Mon 08-Jun-15 17:14:40

I think the tide is turning on this issue. Most of the comments, and the up voting of those comments, is in support of the writer.

0x530x610x750x630x79 Mon 08-Jun-15 17:27:13

I think I am getting less pro trans-person rights, they shouldn't be fighting for the right to change their gender and be accepted as females, they should be fighting for the right for their gender not to affect who they are and how they are treated.

Fighting for the right for men to wear nail varnish and dresses if they want to, or whatever else they think is wrong.

HermioneWeasley Mon 08-Jun-15 17:28:30

Agree, good to see so many women reaching their "peak trans" moment and starting to question the dogma

CollatalieSisters Mon 08-Jun-15 17:34:49

Agree. This is an excellent piece. Thank you for the link, OP.

FreckledLeopard Mon 08-Jun-15 17:34:58

Excellent article.

iisme Mon 08-Jun-15 17:44:41

Encouragingly, two of my Facebook friends have liked this article (not posted personally by me ...) and all the comments attached to that Facebook share are positive and pro-feminist. No sign of any TERF accusations yet, which is not my experience with previous articles expressing similar sentiments (like the time I had to get into a passionate Facebook debate about how accusing a women of "thinking like a rapist" for writing a heartfelt description of her own rape was, like, maybe not that cool ...)

So maybe awareness is growing that thinking about and discussing these issues, and being concerned about their implications for women, is not just knee-jerk transphobia. I hope so!

YonicScrewdriver Mon 08-Jun-15 18:03:17

Well written

whatlifestylechoice Mon 08-Jun-15 18:26:33

Excellent article. I have shared it.

AskBasil Tue 09-Jun-15 06:36:30

Great article

I bet she'll get hatemail for daring to write it.



fustybritches Tue 09-Jun-15 06:49:10

I shared this one of facebbok, 3 likes and a comment thanking me for posting smile

No hate, no death threats, but then my fb is set to private and not that many of my friends are that interested in this stuff...

SweetAndFullOfGrace Tue 09-Jun-15 06:59:42

Excellent article. I do hope the tide is turning on the more ridiculous assertions of the transactivist movement ("front hole" is just bloody stupid) as women sit up and notice that the rhetoric takes something away from women's issues; it's not just about giving freedoms and rights to trans people (the latter would be ok, the former is not).

Every time I see "TERF" used I really do want to throw "BWETA" back (not catchy I know, but "biological women excluding transactivist" is what people who use TERF are).

messyisthenewtidy Tue 09-Jun-15 07:13:27

Great article

QueenStromba Tue 09-Jun-15 09:35:20

What about just WET (woman excluding transactivist)?

SweetAndFullOfGrace Tue 09-Jun-15 09:50:09

Much better Queen smile

iisme Tue 09-Jun-15 10:03:42

Queen! I can't believe you are using the word 'woman' in such a trans-exclusionary way! I think it is clear by now that it is not permissible to use an actual word to describe people-formerly-known-as-women but instead we need to use tortuous phrases referring to what some (bigoted) people might have thought about the implications of what their genitals may have looked like at the point of their birth.

INickedAName Tue 09-Jun-15 10:08:17

I use my sisters Facebook, she's usually happy for me to share and like articles buts she's asked me not to comment, like or post anything trans related because her boss (a nurse) has been all over her feed telling anyone who says Jenner is still male, that they are wrong and trans phobic, that Jenner is now a woman in every sense, and she's worries about repercussions at work. My Mum and sister both loved the article though.

Im surprised but pleased at the shift in views, I was expecting a lot of hate towards "terfs" (I like "wets") but while there has been some, it seems that most comments on articles like these have been the opposite ofvwhatbibwas expecting.

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